Tony Vargas
Legend
Well, as long as they're only feelings, I suppose that might be OK...
D&D 5E XP tracking vs. story progresion leveling, an observation
- Thread starter Sacrosanct
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Feelings are the whole point of any social game.
AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
I like both - right tool for the job, and all of that.
I use tracked XP whenever the campaign is set up in a way that the characters don't have distinctly measurable goals that will be coming along. I currently have a dungeon crawl (Rappan Athuk) going where I track XP so that the chosen path through the dungeon sets the rate of gain to match the difficulty the characters face. I also have an AD&D campaign going where I am completely winging it as DM so it's a full-on sandbox, and I track XP there too because I have no outline to follow so milestone leveling would feel completely random to the players. Another AD&D campaign I'm running also tracks XP even though I am utilizing adventure modules to run it because I'm trying to show one of the players involved what AD&D is actually like (as opposed to what AD&D is like when you have an awful DM that wants to "win" the game, which is all he knows of it from before meeting me).
I use milestone based leveling whenever the campaign has clear points at which characters improving makes sense (like chapters in a novel, or half-season arcs in a tv show). I currently have a campaign going that has a rough outline of what is going on in the world, and the players figure out what their characters are doing given those events in the world around them, and they set a meaningful goal. Once their current goal is completed, they level up, and make another goal. It's not at all a linear campaign - the players are entirely able to do whatever they please in-character - but the players set goals and I can put meaningful challenges in the way of those goals, but I'm not required to pay any attention to what XP value those challenges are worth (which prevents me feeling like I'm "padding" the game with encounters that are only there to fill-in the XP).
I kind of think of it like console RPGs - some of them you can just play right on through as you like, and if you play well you'll do fine. Others force you to spend time grinding by being nigh-unbeatable if you don't. And I try to avoid my table-top campaigns feeling like the latter (which, so that I'm not misunderstood, either type of leveling system can be both of these things depending on how you use them).
I use tracked XP whenever the campaign is set up in a way that the characters don't have distinctly measurable goals that will be coming along. I currently have a dungeon crawl (Rappan Athuk) going where I track XP so that the chosen path through the dungeon sets the rate of gain to match the difficulty the characters face. I also have an AD&D campaign going where I am completely winging it as DM so it's a full-on sandbox, and I track XP there too because I have no outline to follow so milestone leveling would feel completely random to the players. Another AD&D campaign I'm running also tracks XP even though I am utilizing adventure modules to run it because I'm trying to show one of the players involved what AD&D is actually like (as opposed to what AD&D is like when you have an awful DM that wants to "win" the game, which is all he knows of it from before meeting me).
I use milestone based leveling whenever the campaign has clear points at which characters improving makes sense (like chapters in a novel, or half-season arcs in a tv show). I currently have a campaign going that has a rough outline of what is going on in the world, and the players figure out what their characters are doing given those events in the world around them, and they set a meaningful goal. Once their current goal is completed, they level up, and make another goal. It's not at all a linear campaign - the players are entirely able to do whatever they please in-character - but the players set goals and I can put meaningful challenges in the way of those goals, but I'm not required to pay any attention to what XP value those challenges are worth (which prevents me feeling like I'm "padding" the game with encounters that are only there to fill-in the XP).
I kind of think of it like console RPGs - some of them you can just play right on through as you like, and if you play well you'll do fine. Others force you to spend time grinding by being nigh-unbeatable if you don't. And I try to avoid my table-top campaigns feeling like the latter (which, so that I'm not misunderstood, either type of leveling system can be both of these things depending on how you use them).
werecorpse
Adventurer
We use xp but had been using story progression for the last few years of 3.5/pathfinder adventure path campaigns. IMO story progression worked well in a more linear campaign but in a more sandbox ( like we are playing now) I like the granularity of xp.
Story based levelling feels like you are levelled up based on the adventure that you are about to go on.
xp levelling feels like you are levelled up based on the adventures that you have had.
Story based levelling feels like you are levelled up based on the adventure that you are about to go on.
xp levelling feels like you are levelled up based on the adventures that you have had.
Inchoroi
Adventurer
I used milestone in 4e, and tried it in 5e...didn't like it, though; it felt...cheap? It was odd.
Now, I use XP--but I also give XP for a lot of things besides killing monsters; it's completing quests, completing in-character goals, etc. I'm also one of those DMs that keep track of where the "most likely" points of leveling are, but I also don't keep track of encounter difficulty any longer (meaning that if the party stumbles into the ancient dragon's lair at level 3 despite my clear, in character, warning signs and then insult that dragon, well, hopefully that will mean their next characters are smarter.
Now, I use XP--but I also give XP for a lot of things besides killing monsters; it's completing quests, completing in-character goals, etc. I'm also one of those DMs that keep track of where the "most likely" points of leveling are, but I also don't keep track of encounter difficulty any longer (meaning that if the party stumbles into the ancient dragon's lair at level 3 despite my clear, in character, warning signs and then insult that dragon, well, hopefully that will mean their next characters are smarter.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
No, I have not, moreover, my point was that with exceptions wherein the plot calls for players not to know how near they are to the next "stage" or completing their current stage, there should be fairly reasonable "tells" that completion is near, or progression is at a certain point. For example, how close are we to Mordor on our trip to destroy the Ring? "How close are we to Mordor?" is broken down into several stages. Have we reached the Prancing Pony? Have we reached Weathertop? Are we in Rivendell? etc.... These are known points on a map, we know how far A is from B, B is from C, etc... So we know, or in the case of Hobbits who don't know, we learn as we travel how far certain things are from each other. Indeed as LOTR progresses, each of these points becomes further apart, so one can intuit that if it took one day to travel from A to B, and we have been traveling for 2 days and are told we are only half-way there, C must be 4 days away in total.
Figuring out how far you are along in plot completion is exactly the same. In order to imprison the horrible, evil monster, we need the 13 Treasures of Rule. We know they are spread out around the globe, but we have heard that they tend to find their way into the hands of people who would seek to use their power. So, we don't need to look for the Treasures, we need to look for people who are looking for the Treasures. Have we found one? Yes/No. If yes, determine how close they are to finding the Treasure, ie: have they passed Marker A, are they to the POint of No Return, etc...
If chapters are wildly different in terms of determining how close you are to completing the Objective or obtaining the McGuffin that is as I said, a problem with plot progression, because that frankly, shouldn't be happening. Being able to tell how far you are between A and B may be difficult at times, that's fine, but it shouldn't be unpredictably so. There should always be tells that give players an indication that they are moving forward and in the right direction. Running into more of the Evil Minions is typically a good sign, ever increasing numbers or power levels is a good tell you're approaching the Boss Man. Encountering Strange Effects is a good tell that you're on the right path to finding the Strange Effect McGuffin, these should typically increase in severity and frequency as you approach.
For this I'll refer back to LOTR, the Nine are a perfect example of forward progression. The further you advance towards Objective, the more of the Nine you see at the same time, until of course, you see nine Nine.
If these sort of tells are left out, or the tells do not follow an understandable pattern, plot progression will fail to feel "forward moving". One of the biggest sandtraps of plot-progression-based-advancement are cities. It is easy for players to get bogged down in minutia in a city, from buying things to getting gear to seducing the ladies. This is a common problem when plot-based games fail to include some kind of pressure on the players dallying too long, from risking their attackers catching up, to risking their foes getting too far ahead.
You know why so many TV dramas show people walking from one room to another? Because it makes the plot feel like it's moving forward. You literally need to have the players keep moving, or it will start bogging down and players will lose the ability to figure out how close they are to their next objective.
It's also worth pointing out that it does also require players looking at things a little differently, instead of looking at "when will I be the next level" as XP promotes, you have to keep them looking at "When will we reach the Objective." Which also helps keep their head in the game. If your players are wondering "when will I level?" there's some kind of communication failure going on because they really should be able to get a feel for it from the understandable plot progression.
MechaPilot
Explorer
I use story progression. My current group knows the next time they take a long rest outside the dungeon they will level. Oddly, they aren't really frantically looking for a way out. Which is funny to me because I have a couple of power gamers at the table, one of whom loves the number porn.
pdzoch
Explorer
I am using the smorgasbord approach, combining XP, Story and milestone. The story is the meal, the XP is the meat (main entre on the plate) and the milestone is the desert. I strive to ensure all three work together to make for a satisfying progression. The story is drive the plot, but the hard work earned through the XP to reach milestone makes the journey rewarding. The level feels earned instead of automatically progressed.
I wrote this entire damn Quest XP document for Princes of the Apocalypse in order to get the "feeling" of XP advancement without all the tedious post-combat-arithmetic: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?442930-Princes-of-the-Apocalypse-Quest-XP
I find it awfully difficult to use xp because my players are so averse to combat. They usually find another way to deal with most encounters and so I am forced to ballpark how much xp they actually recieve in a given session. After a year or two of doing that, I threw my hands up into the air and just went with milestone leveling, only occasionally going back through the slow slog of keeping track of xp.
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