ilgatto
How inconvenient
Esteemed friends,
I've been trying to make sense of the XP values for monsters, recording their SAXPBs and EAXPAs and then using the table "Experience Level or Monster's Hit Dice" on p. 85 of the DMG to come up with a number.
Unsurprisingly, these numbers deviate from those given in Appendix E of the DMG (p. 197-215) in apocalyptic fashion, often because I have some trouble matching many abilities to the definitions for SAXPBs and EAXPAs on p. 85.
But that's perhaps a subject for a future discussion, for I've been wondering how to allocate xp to "monsters with character classes" first and foremost. I mean, how many hit dice does a githyanki supreme leader have? Not to mention a halfling fighter or an elf fighter/magic-user/cleric?
Then, when I got way down into the table I'm cooking up, I ran into the kuo-toans, and that got me thinking. For here, on p. 58 of the Fiend Folio (and p. 14 of D2), there is a table that says that "The number of hit dice possessed by this hardy race is not indicative of their possible variation in hits, since their breeding gives them exactly the same number of hit points per die, varying by level:", followed by how many hit points a male or female kuo-toan has per hit die.
So, what does that mean? What does that mean for a kuo-toan monitor (C7 or C/A 7/7) or priest-king (C/A 12/12)? How many hit point does each have? Does a male monitor have 56 hp and a priest-king 120 hp? It would seem so, wouldn't it, coz there's nothing on hit dice or hit points for multi-classed kuo-toans.
If so, this would actually mean that a monitor "counts as a 7-hit-die monster" regardless of whether he/she is C7 or C/A 7/7, and that a priest-king "counts as a 12-hit-die monster."
What does that mean for the xp to be awarded to each? According to the "Experience Point Value for Monsters" table on p. 85 in the DMG, xp are awarded per "experience level" or "monster's hit dice", right? Meaning that a C/A 7/7 monitor falls into the "6+1 to 7" category, and a priest-king into the "11 to 12+" category?
On that note, I seem to recall that "hit dice" was originally meant to represent something like "the category that determines what a monster can hit with what die-roll", which would make sense in this light.
However.
The asterisk in the heading "Experience Level or Monster's Hit Dice*" in that table refers to the first footnote, which says: "*Treat peasants/levies as up to 1-1, men-at-arms as 1-1 to 1, and all levels as the n+1 hit dice category."
So the question is: does that footnote apply to monsters? I mean, kuo-toan monitors and priest-kings do have "levels", don't they? And the table is under the heading "Experience Points Value of Monsters".
So does that mean that a kuo-toan C/A 7/7 monitor falls into the "7+1 to 8" category for determining xp? And that a priest-king stays in the "11 to 12+" category?
Or does the "all levels" refer to "men" with levels coz it's in a line that refs to "peasants/levies" and "men-at-arms"?
I may be missing the point completely here, and/or preaching to the choir for that matter, but can anyone shed some light on this? Has one of the luminaries of the game ever given a "definitive answer" to this?
ilgatto
P.S.: Interestingly, in Dragon #80 (p. 50-51), Lenard Lakofka says this on the xp table in DMG: "One of the Dungeon Master's most important functions is to award experience points to the party after an adventure or an evening of play. To do this properly, one must re-evaluate the chart on page 85 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. When we look at the experience-point values for monsters given on page 85 of the DMG, we see that monsters are generally grouped in a pattern x+1 to y (e.g., 4+1 to 5). This pattern, however, does not properly reflect that a monster's "to hit" probabilities change between 4+3 and 4+4. That is, a 4 HD monster hits on the same number as a 4+3 HD monster does, but a 4+4 HD monster hits as a 5 HD monster.
The rules on saving throws (page 79, DMG) specify that a 4 HD monster (one that is primarily a "fighter" type) saves as a 4th-level fighter, while one with 4+1 to 4+4 hit dice saves as a 5th-level fighter. These two facts taken together mean that the experience-point award for a certain monster is based more upon that monster's saving throws than upon its ability to fight.
That seems like backwards logic. A simple solution would be to make the combat tables and the saving-throw matrix both progress in the same fashion; i.e., a 3+4 HD to 4+3 HD monster saves as a 4th-level fighter, while a monster of 4+4 to 5+3 HD strikes 5% more often and saves as a
5th-level fighter."
I'd say that Lakofka's conclusion that "These two facts taken together mean that the experience-point award for a certain monster is based more upon that monster's saving throws than upon its ability to fight." is rather more after the fact than before it, but there you go.
I've been trying to make sense of the XP values for monsters, recording their SAXPBs and EAXPAs and then using the table "Experience Level or Monster's Hit Dice" on p. 85 of the DMG to come up with a number.
Unsurprisingly, these numbers deviate from those given in Appendix E of the DMG (p. 197-215) in apocalyptic fashion, often because I have some trouble matching many abilities to the definitions for SAXPBs and EAXPAs on p. 85.
But that's perhaps a subject for a future discussion, for I've been wondering how to allocate xp to "monsters with character classes" first and foremost. I mean, how many hit dice does a githyanki supreme leader have? Not to mention a halfling fighter or an elf fighter/magic-user/cleric?
Then, when I got way down into the table I'm cooking up, I ran into the kuo-toans, and that got me thinking. For here, on p. 58 of the Fiend Folio (and p. 14 of D2), there is a table that says that "The number of hit dice possessed by this hardy race is not indicative of their possible variation in hits, since their breeding gives them exactly the same number of hit points per die, varying by level:", followed by how many hit points a male or female kuo-toan has per hit die.
So, what does that mean? What does that mean for a kuo-toan monitor (C7 or C/A 7/7) or priest-king (C/A 12/12)? How many hit point does each have? Does a male monitor have 56 hp and a priest-king 120 hp? It would seem so, wouldn't it, coz there's nothing on hit dice or hit points for multi-classed kuo-toans.
If so, this would actually mean that a monitor "counts as a 7-hit-die monster" regardless of whether he/she is C7 or C/A 7/7, and that a priest-king "counts as a 12-hit-die monster."
What does that mean for the xp to be awarded to each? According to the "Experience Point Value for Monsters" table on p. 85 in the DMG, xp are awarded per "experience level" or "monster's hit dice", right? Meaning that a C/A 7/7 monitor falls into the "6+1 to 7" category, and a priest-king into the "11 to 12+" category?
On that note, I seem to recall that "hit dice" was originally meant to represent something like "the category that determines what a monster can hit with what die-roll", which would make sense in this light.
However.
The asterisk in the heading "Experience Level or Monster's Hit Dice*" in that table refers to the first footnote, which says: "*Treat peasants/levies as up to 1-1, men-at-arms as 1-1 to 1, and all levels as the n+1 hit dice category."
So the question is: does that footnote apply to monsters? I mean, kuo-toan monitors and priest-kings do have "levels", don't they? And the table is under the heading "Experience Points Value of Monsters".
So does that mean that a kuo-toan C/A 7/7 monitor falls into the "7+1 to 8" category for determining xp? And that a priest-king stays in the "11 to 12+" category?
Or does the "all levels" refer to "men" with levels coz it's in a line that refs to "peasants/levies" and "men-at-arms"?
I may be missing the point completely here, and/or preaching to the choir for that matter, but can anyone shed some light on this? Has one of the luminaries of the game ever given a "definitive answer" to this?
ilgatto
P.S.: Interestingly, in Dragon #80 (p. 50-51), Lenard Lakofka says this on the xp table in DMG: "One of the Dungeon Master's most important functions is to award experience points to the party after an adventure or an evening of play. To do this properly, one must re-evaluate the chart on page 85 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. When we look at the experience-point values for monsters given on page 85 of the DMG, we see that monsters are generally grouped in a pattern x+1 to y (e.g., 4+1 to 5). This pattern, however, does not properly reflect that a monster's "to hit" probabilities change between 4+3 and 4+4. That is, a 4 HD monster hits on the same number as a 4+3 HD monster does, but a 4+4 HD monster hits as a 5 HD monster.
The rules on saving throws (page 79, DMG) specify that a 4 HD monster (one that is primarily a "fighter" type) saves as a 4th-level fighter, while one with 4+1 to 4+4 hit dice saves as a 5th-level fighter. These two facts taken together mean that the experience-point award for a certain monster is based more upon that monster's saving throws than upon its ability to fight.
That seems like backwards logic. A simple solution would be to make the combat tables and the saving-throw matrix both progress in the same fashion; i.e., a 3+4 HD to 4+3 HD monster saves as a 4th-level fighter, while a monster of 4+4 to 5+3 HD strikes 5% more often and saves as a
5th-level fighter."
I'd say that Lakofka's conclusion that "These two facts taken together mean that the experience-point award for a certain monster is based more upon that monster's saving throws than upon its ability to fight." is rather more after the fact than before it, but there you go.
