XP: When and how do you decide the value of an encounter?

[Ahnehnois]

When I did XP, I would do it player by player, after the session. Typically, I would write a review of the session events and tabulate XP, assigning ad hoc amounts for anything I felt advanced the game or demonstrated prowess of some kind. If I tried to XP for battles beforehand, I suspect my values would be far off, because my estimation of encounter difficulty is often inaccurate.

 

[Ariosto]

I definitely favor rating the situation on a general measure of difficulty, rather than on the specifics of how hard or easy it is for particular players. To give more XP for having a harder time of it would be to reward unskilled play. That is very blatantly the case when (as in the game I DM) it is up to the players where to go and what to do, and it is chiefly in making those decisions that play of the game consists.

Further complicating some views, while simplifying others, is the direct relationship in that game between treasure and XP. Securing treasure is the goal, not struggling through "encounters". It's like Baseball, in which there's no bonus for swinging strikes and fouls -- you score points by getting runners across home base.

When I place treasures, I am roughly assessing the requirements -- not just in character levels and numbers, but in demands on player effort or intellect -- to get the treasures. The returns on brute force and ignorance are likely to be at lower rates. For instance, wandering monsters as a general rule bear little or no treasure.

There was a period when I did not even reduce awards for characters taking on challenges beneath their power level, except in the most egregious cases. The scaling of treasures by dungeon level and the scaling of XP requirements by character level seemed to be enough.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Interesting. Usually, a suggestion is given to lower XP amounts if the encounter is too easy, or increase them if it is too hard. But you bring up another option: what do you do with the XP reward when the PCs flee? (Although the villains fled in your examples, it was effectively the PCs fleeing since you had them flee to save the PCs -- something I would never do myself, but that's a different thread entirely.)

Oh, no. You completely misunderstood me. The wererat didn't flee to save the PCs from a TPK; he did it because he was injured and facing several enemies with silvered weapons. Although I knew he had at least some chance of TPKing the PCs, he was more concerned with saving his own skin than killing them.

My players would be the first to tell you, I don't pull my punches.

But to answer your question: if the PCs don't "overcome" a challenge (whatever that means), I don't give them any XP.

 

[TarionzCousin]

At the end of every session, I roll a d1000 for each player. Whatever comes up on the dice is how much XP that player gets.

Great fun. It engenders a good, healthy, bonding "We all hate the DM" group mentality.

 

[Reynard]

Oh, no. You completely misunderstood me. The wererat didn't flee to save the PCs from a TPK; he did it because he was injured and facing several enemies with silvered weapons. Although I knew he had at least some chance of TPKing the PCs, he was more concerned with saving his own skin than killing them.

Oops. Re-reading your initial post, I see where I got confused. however, this brings up another question: the PCs effectively beat that challenge, driving off both enemies. In that case, why penalize them half the XP?

I ask because it segues back to the question of what XP is and what it represents. If you have to KILL your enemies to get the whole reward, it kind of implies XP is some kind of energy associated with life force or magic or some such thing. If you have to just "overcome a challange" with no regard to the specifics of how, that implies XP is in fact some sort of "experience". Butr if that's the case, then failing should give plenty of XP too because it is often our failures that teach us most. Furthermore, it follows that XP should bleed away, as skills tend to get rusty without practice, so even powerful warriors might need to go hacking up goblins just to keep themselves "in shape" or perhaps suffer the lost of XP and even levels.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Oops. Re-reading your initial post, I see where I got confused. however, this brings up another question: the PCs effectively beat that challenge, driving off both enemies. In that case, why penalize them half the XP?

It's an excellent question, and I have no "bright-line rule" to offer. They did "overcome" the challenge, just not "completely."

And in fact, last night the wererat returned to take his vengeance (though we had to end the session before we could finish the fight)...so they will get another chance to "overcome" him and earn the XP they "missed out on." But had they chosen different actions during last night's session, they would not have re-encountered the wererat, and so they wouldn't have gotten a second chance at him. It all depends on how the story happens to unfold.

I ask because it segues back to the question of what XP is and what it represents. If you have to KILL your enemies to get the whole reward, it kind of implies XP is some kind of energy associated with life force or magic or some such thing. If you have to just "overcome a challange" with no regard to the specifics of how, that implies XP is in fact some sort of "experience".

Yep, and while I don't agonize over exactly what XP represents, that's pretty close to how I see it. If my players drive the wererat off, but don't actually defeat him, I don't give full XP. If they totally "overcome" him (whether by killing him, imprisoning him somewhere he can do no harm, or maybe just ruining his evil plans), then they earn the full amount.

Butr if that's the case, then failing should give plenty of XP too because it is often our failures that teach us most. Furthermore, it follows that XP should bleed away, as skills tend to get rusty without practice, so even powerful warriors might need to go hacking up goblins just to keep themselves "in shape" or perhaps suffer the lost of XP and even levels.

Philosophically, those may be valid points, but in practice I really just use XP as a way for my players to measure their success.

 

[Reynard]

Philosophically, those may be valid points, but in practice I really just use XP as a way for my players to measure their success.

For the record, I think that is exactly what XP is -- it's a measurement of accomplishment for the PLAYERS, which happens to have an impact for the characters.

It'd be nice to come up with a more concrete Player XP reward that would allow for the near elimination of the character XP reward. If you think about television series, ongong comic books and novel series, there is usually only a small amount of "character development" as D&D defines it. Most characters don't go through significant skill improvements, and generally those that do are pretty inept to begin with. Nonetheless, Jack Bauer's adventures are engaging, because of what happens within them. Sometimes, I really want to run games like that, where the PCs are sufficiently capable from the outset so as to eliminate the need for advancement (at least for most of them; if a new player was there, i'd actually kind of appreciate a system for that player's character to develope mechanically as the player got more comfortable with the gmae).

I guess the best compromise, at least in D&D, is to use earlyu edition levelling that slows to a crawl in the "sweet spot" mid range, with a relatively shallow power curve on top of it.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I guess the best compromise, at least in D&D, is to use earlyu edition levelling that slows to a crawl in the "sweet spot" mid range, with a relatively shallow power curve on top of it.

Have you ever looked at E6? You might find it quite appealing.

 

[the Jester]

If you think about television series, ongong comic books and novel series, there is usually only a small amount of "character development" as D&D defines it. Most characters don't go through significant skill improvements, and generally those that do are pretty inept to begin with.

Ahh, but there are exceptions! I point to the first run of New Mutants- all the "pcs" got to know their powers better and learned new ways to use them (Cannonball got much better control over his flight, learned to use his blast field in different ways, etc; Moonstar under whatever name learned to pull more than her target's worst fear from its mind; etc).

[/threadjack]

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

I award XP based on encounters overcame at the end of each session via e-mail. I do this, mainly, because the first DM I played with did e-mail this way and it was always a pleasant surprise to find the XP e-mail waiting in my inbox.

I like to recap the session, then break down each encounter (social or martial) that the PCs triumphed or fled. I try to award XP per the book, but especially if I'm playing a module. Below is an example (and some mild Red Hand of Doom spoilers)

Developments on the PC side

• Day 1 - 1pm: Party was ambushed by Hobgoblins on their approach to Drellin's Ferry. The leader of the group was interrogated and killed by Lord Balthasar. He bore the emblem of a red hand in a dark yellow circle. From the other surviving Hobgoblin, the PCs learned that Koth was the leader of the raiders and had taken up residence in an abandoned human castle. The PCs speculated that it was the same castle that they were traveling too in hopes of finding an unspoiled treasure vault.
• Day 1 - 3pm: PCs arrived in Drellin's Ferry. They met with Speaker Wiston and Captain Soranna to discuss the Hobgoblin threat in the area. Morvaud Grimspear agreed on behalf of the party to investigate and thwart the hobgoblin raiders in the area. A wizard offered them reduced rates on his wares because of the party's effort to stem the Red Hand threat (He can craft any wizard scroll 3rd level or lower for half price and has a selection of scrolls, potions, and items for sell). The PCs met the town's blacksmith as well who had a selection of magical and masterwork items. Given time, he could craft items for the PCs. The PCs sold most of the loot gathered from the Hobgoblin raiders to the blacksmith. Additionally, they visited a small shrine to Pelor from which they purchased two potions of cure light wounds and a 1st level spell to heal Valen.
• Day 2 - Dawn: PCs depart Drellin's Ferry in search of Vraath Keep and the woodsman Jorr. They enter the Western Witchwood.
• Day 2 - Mid-morning: The PCs arrive at Jorr's cabin in the woods following Speaker Wiston's directions. Upon mentioning that they intended to rid the Witchwood of Hobgoblins, Jorr agrees to act as a guide for the PCs. He mentions that he knows the location of Vraath Keep and increased activity of Hobgoblins north of Skull Gorge. The party decides to investigate Vraath Keep first, afraid to leave any Hobgoblin threat at their backs before going to the Bridge over Skull Gorge.
• Day 2 - Late Morning: The PCs are attacked by a lurking Hydra, they flee.

Hobgoblin Ambush - 4500 XP / 4 Players: 1, 125 each
6 CR1 Hobgoblin Regulars
2 CR 3Hell Hounds
Zarr the Cleric of ???? CR3
Uth-Lar the Bladebearer CR4

Hydra Attack - No XP, Hydra was not defeated
CR Unknown

Challenge at the Watchpost - Social Challenge: 300 XP
Managed to win the trust of the town watch by proving your might against the Goblin raiders
Speaker Wiston's attitude was Friendly instead of Indifferent in offering advice (though the party didn't pump him for info really)

Enlisting Jorr - Social Challenge: 900 XP
Manage to enlist the aid of a guide, Jorr, to help with the Goblin menace and act as a guide in the Witchwood
Additional Bonus: Because of Jorr's outstanding knowledge of the Witchwood, random encounter chances drop by 15%

Total XP per Character: 2,325