[XPH] Trouble with Autohypnosis

[Non-human Resources]

Autohypnosis is a skill in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. In addition to ignoring pain, poison and stabilizing at negative hit points you can memorize one page of information (even if you don't understand it) with a DC of 15.

Which doesn't seem like a big deal unless you have a game end like the one I had last Saturday.

Me (the DM): The demon prince tears out a page and throws the book to the ground. He says "Look at the burning city behind you, where this book goes trouble follows."

Player A: He's right.
Player B: Would should burn it.
Player C: That would be rash.
Player D: Perhaps we should read it first.
Player E: While they are arguing I memorize the book. {rolls dice}

Well, I said no for the following reasons:

1) It's *way* to easy.
2) I suspect the skill was meant to be used on small documents.
3) If you can memorize one book you can memorize a whole library (and I really don't want to go there).
4) If you can memorize one book you can memorize a spellbook (they are non-magical).

So, is there a legal way to get around this or do I just have to invoke DM fiat? Should I ban the skill altogether?

 

[Scion]

The psion has to read it, so however long that sort of thing takes, along with making checks, and then further checks later on to recall it.

I dont see it as being a major problem, it will still take quite some time to memorize a whole book. Plus, it will take a very long time to recall the information later.

Why is it a big deal exactly? Even normally someone in the game can expect to read something and know it forever, all this skill does is allow exact recall.

Most of the uses of this skill arent incredible, all put together few really come up very often. I dont see the memorization as being unbalancing in pretty much any case. Memorizing spellbooks sounds interesting, but likely all it would help with is simply making it easier to copy down to another source later on that one can study the spells from.

If the book is a few hundred pages long it will take a long time to memorize it all, I doubt the party is just going to sit there and let him leaf page by page memorizing it, especially if they want to destroy it. He'll probably get one page memorized max.

 

[Non-human Resources]

Why is it a big deal exactly? Even normally someone in the game can expect to read something and know it forever, all this skill does is allow exact recall.

Well, you don't have to read it (understanding isn't necessary) you just have to see it. So taking 10, you can memorize one page per round. Even a big book can be done within an hour.

Most of the uses of this skill arent incredible, all put together few really come up very often.

Agreed, the other functions aren't a problem.

Memorizing spellbooks sounds interesting, but likely all it would help with is simply making it easier to copy down to another source later on that one can study the spells from.

With perfect recall why even bother with a spell book? Just look at someone else's and save on the scribing costs. I forget the name but isn't there a feat that lets you prepare spells without your book? Isn't that feat limited to only three or four spells? Should one rank in a skill be able to replace that feat?

I doubt the party is just going to sit there and let him leaf page by page memorizing it, especially if they want to destroy it.

This bunch might let him. Especially if he can convince them that they can destroy it after he memorizes it (less than an hour later).

The more I think about this the more I see things getting out of control. That's why I'm asking for the wisdom of ENworld. (Who know's maybe I am overreacting, but I doubt it.)

 

[Scion]

Just because you have the spellbook memorized does not remove the need to study from the spellbook to regain the spells.

I bet that high level mages who have been looking over their spellbook for years have it memorized, word for word, page for page, right down to any incident stains that have happened upon the pages. But even with all of that, they still need the book.

Symbology, focus, whatever you want to say is the reason, no need to give the skill more power than it has when it isnt needed nor warrented.

So, given enough time and successful checks, he can memorize the book.

I am still not seeing a problem there are spells which could've simply copied it and then they could've destroyed the original or whatever.

If they want to destroy the book so much why would they not then stop someone from copying it? Whether it is to another book form or to someones mind. The book is still around either way, so goal not accomplished.

 

[derelictjay]

Actually I might have let him do it, now that trouble that follows the book around, now follows him. So if they burn/destroy the book, its not gone, the book is still there with the psion, he has just become the book. Move the storyline to encompass new parameters, now the player is cursed. And it doesn't mean he can apply the knowledge, he's just got it memoriezed.

But as to the skill, naw don't ban it, in the case of autohypnotising a spell, its about the studying of the spell that counts, if the character doesn't know how the arcane works then he can't even scribe the spell (of course he also needs the feat). And memorizing the spell requires all the components like a spellbook and rest, and you have to take a feat to loose the spellbook, simple.

 

[Someone]

Well, you don't have to read it (understanding isn't necessary) you just have to see it. So taking 10, you can memorize one page per round. Even a big book can be done within an hour.

I don´t think I agree. I´ll quote the relevant passages from the srd, to future posters in the thread:

Memorize: You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information (but you can’t memorize magical writing or similarly exotic scripts). Each successful check allows you to memorize a single page of text (up to 800 words), numbers, diagrams, or sigils (even if you don’t recognize their meaning). If a document is longer than one page, you can make additional checks for each additional page. You always retain this information; however, you can recall it only with another successful Autohypnosis check.

Action: None. Making an Autohypnosis check doesn’t require an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).

That you don´t have to understand the symbolds don´t mean that you have to examine them carefully, like when, for example, you read them. After all, the skill allows prodigious feats of memory, not awesome perceptive abilities. I think doing this would be the same as looking into a room for one round, memorize it with Autohypnosis, then, when you´re away, take 20 in a search check to examine your mental photograph.

 

[Piratecat]

I think the skill is just fine. You need to remember, though, that it isn't an issue of skimming through the pages and having it memorized. You have to make a roll for every page, and you have to read every page in order to do that. That takes time.

 

[AuraSeer]

Well, I said no for the following reasons:

1) It's *way* to easy.
2) I suspect the skill was meant to be used on small documents.
3) If you can memorize one book you can memorize a whole library (and I really don't want to go there).
4) If you can memorize one book you can memorize a spellbook (they are non-magical).

Your points 1 & 2 go together, and I agree with you there. Use lots of circumstance modifiers for complexity; I call it DC 15 for a very simple printed document, DC 20 for anything with handwriting, DC 25 if there are simple images or unkown language, and DC 30+ for anything that has complex images, mathematical formulas, or magical diagrams of any kind.

Memorizing a spellbook page might be possible, but won't let anyone prepare spells without the book. IMC, the reason writing in a spellbook is so slow and costly is because the diagrams are an integral part of spell preparation. The wizard must perform specific mental exercises while gazing at the mathematically precise diagrams. Without the diagrams in front of his eyes, he can't prepare anything (except via the Spell Mastery feat).

On point 3, I don't think that means what you think it means.
If the character spends a few months and flips through every page in a library, he can memorize them all. Fine. That doesn't mean he has any comprehension or recall of the facts in those books. All he gets is the ability to call up an image of a particular page, if he knows which page he wants.

It's like scanning pages of an encyclopedia into your computer. You get a bunch of image files that show you exactly what each page looks like, and if you ask to see page 219 of volume R, you can read the Raccoon entry. But without comprehension of the pages, you'll have no idea which page or volume you need to look in, so having that image database doesn't help when some unfamiliar fuzzy animal has run off with your car keys.

A character who memorized a library might get a bonus on Research checks away from the library, but he could not be helped by anybody using "Aid Another," and it would take at least as long as researching in the library itself. (It might even take longer, depending on whether he remembered to memorize the card catalog. )

Should I ban the skill altogether?

House rules coming:
I've split the skill into two parts. My Autohypnosis skill covers only the mental aspects, like memorization and lessening pain. The other skill has the working title "Biohypnosis" and covers the physical aspects, like ignoring poison and becoming stable. Biohypnosis is a class skill only for psychic warriors and a couple of PrCs, and your ranks in the skill may never exceed your maximum power points. (Obviously this means it can't be taken by nonpsionic characters.)

 

[DreamChaser]

Actually I might have let him do it, now that trouble that follows the book around, now follows him. So if they burn/destroy the book, its not gone, the book is still there with the psion, he has just become the book. Move the storyline to encompass new parameters, now the player is cursed. And it doesn't mean he can apply the knowledge, he's just got it memoriezed.

I love the way your mind works. This is exactly what I'd do in this situation too.

DC