[XRP] Just what is in A Magical Society: Beast Builder anyway?

[Conaill]

Right now we don't have an LA estimator. I imagine that would be even harder to do since LA is more dependent upon play style than even CR is (and that's saying a lot).

Yeah, I know. I figure you would also need some way to indicate how reliable the LA estimate is. In other words, how necessary it would be to double-check the LA using an appropriate acid test. A creature with some extra STR, CON, natural AC and natural weapons is easy... that's just equivalent to a Ftr X for some value of X. But imagine your somewhat more... ahem... "creative" player:

"It's an Awakened Tarrasque, see? But to balance him, I made him paralyzed, so he has STR 1 and DEX 1. Oh, and he's blind too."

This kind of monstrocity is so far outside the normal parameters of monster creation that (1) you don't really have anything to compare it to in terms of LA assignment, (2) it's probably horribly abusable in some way that is hard to predict from just looking at how the LA's add up, and (3) it would be extremely campaign and world dependent (although this part should theoretically play much less of a role in LA estimation).

That *doesn't* mean you couldn't come up with some pretty good estimates for the majority of new monsters though! Heck, as long as you're doing a bit better than Savage Species and Soldarin's ECl calculator, that would already be a huge boon for the community. Then you just add some mechanism to raise warning flags (or even refuse to assign an LA) if there are unusually unbalanced stats, or unprecendented ability combinations, etc.

 

[jgbrowning]

Yeah, I know. I figure you would also need some way to indicate how reliable the LA estimate is. In other words, how necessary it would be to double-check the LA using an appropriate acid test. A creature with some extra STR, CON, natural AC and natural weapons is easy... that's just equivalent to a Ftr X for some value of X. But imagine your somewhat more... ahem... "creative" player:

"It's an Awakened Tarrasque, see? But to balance him, I made him paralyzed, so he has STR 1 and DEX 1. Oh, and he's blind too."

This kind of monstrocity is so far outside the normal parameters of monster creation that (1) you don't really have anything to compare it to in terms of LA assignment, (2) it's probably horribly abusable in some way that is hard to predict from just looking at how the LA's add up, and (3) it would be extremely campaign and world dependent (although this part should theoretically play much less of a role in LA estimation).

That *doesn't* mean you couldn't come up with some pretty good estimates for the majority of new monsters though! Heck, as long as you're doing a bit better than Savage Species and Soldarin's ECl calculator, that would already be a huge boon for the community. Then you just add some mechanism to raise warning flags (or even refuse to assign an LA) if there are unusually unbalanced stats, or unprecendented ability combinations, etc.

The three reasons you state are good ones arguing against a LA estimator. Rather than postulate an estimator my advice is to playtest if you want to play a monster as a PC. Like CR, it's the only way to be sure. And unlike CR, LAs effect a very small percentage of gamers as most monsters will never be used as a PC race. LAs are more variable depending on play style than CR- what's abusive in one playing style would never happen in another.

joe b.

 

[mythusmage]

About chapter one...

I was thinking that a monster could be defined by what it eats and how it catches its food. Frex...

Basilisk: Carnivore. Ambush predator with paralyzation gaze. Depending on species severity of paralyzation can range from muscle stiffness (slowing movement and reaction) to full neurological paralysis (possibly fatal)

If you like including scientific tidbits, a bit on the creature's ancestry. Such as...

Basilisk: Advanced velociraptor. Three genera, each with a number of species.

And being shameless I must ask, you looking for 'playtesters'?

 

[Garnfellow]

[DING!]

This book just went to the top of my buy list. I've really been looking for a resource just like this.

 

[jgbrowning]

Well, I've got some good news and some bad news about A Magical Society: Beast Builder.

First the bad news: We've laid the book out and found that it's only around 234 pages. This means we either need to write more to make 256 or take out a bit to make 224.

What we've decided to do is delete Appendix III-CR Estimator. We feel that, although it adds to the book, of the material we have it is already available elsewhere so including it isn't a requirement for the book's goal. So if you wish to have it pick up Grim Tales by Bad Axe Games.

Now the good news: Since the book's smaller, the price has gone down. It won't be $40 anymore, it will now be $35. This also means the PDF's price has gone down from $15 to $13.50. We hope this will please more people than we displease by taking out the CR estimator.


Now to answer questions/comments:

About chapter one...

I was thinking that a monster could be defined by what it eats and how it catches its food. Frex...

Basilisk: Carnivore. Ambush predator with paralyzation gaze. Depending on species severity of paralyzation can range from muscle stiffness (slowing movement and reaction) to full neurological paralysis (possibly fatal)

What you've described is what we've termed the monsters niche. Niche is answered by the following questions- What does it eat and what eats it? What does the creature do and where does it do it? How does it interact with other species?

Functions are viewed from a game perspective- ie. how does the monster "attacks" (or interacts in some cases) the players. In what manner does it do so? We then have functions like grappler, disabler, drainer, helper, combatant, energy attacker, PC Killer, spawner, etc..

Concepts are more general ideas-the overarching concept of the monster. For an ogre it would be something like "a smallish giant that bashes things." An aboleth would be "a strange aquatic creature that turns others into slaves and uses it's powers to manipulate/deceive others." Generally, concepts are the monster idea while function is how it performs that idea.

If you like including scientific tidbits, a bit on the creature's ancestry. Such as...

Basilisk: Advanced velociraptor. Three genera, each with a number of species.

And being shameless I must ask, you looking for 'playtesters'?

We thought about giving guidelines to GMs about faux classifications, but I think most people won't do that and the ones that would like to probably allready know how...

[DING!]

This book just went to the top of my buy list. I've really been looking for a resource just like this.

Thanks, I think it is going to be a tremendously useful book.

joe b.

 

[Crothian]

What we've decided to do is delete Appendix III-CR Estimator. We feel that, although it adds to the book, of the material we have it is already available elsewhere so including it isn't a requirement for the book's goal. So if you wish to have it pick up Grim Tales by Bad Axe Games.

Will you at least be putting in a sentance or two saying something like "for the best CR caluclator we recommend Grim Tales one" and point people to the book and PDF?

 

[jgbrowning]

Will you at least be putting in a sentance or two saying something like "for the best CR caluclator we recommend Grim Tales one" and point people to the book and PDF?

We'll have to contact Bad Axe and ask for permission. I was thinking about doing this but wanted to see if anyone would suggest it first...

EDIT: Wulf's just okayed it, so it'll be in there.

joe b.

 

[DMH]

Since it is shorter, you can get it out earlier, right?

Of what I know is comming out this year, this is one of 4 must-buy books for me. I can't wait to see the 7 ways templates are gained (inherited, aquired, cursed, enchanted, ??).

 

[jgbrowning]

Since it is shorter, you can get it out earlier, right?

Of what I know is comming out this year, this is one of 4 must-buy books for me. I can't wait to see the 7 ways templates are gained (inherited, aquired, cursed, enchanted, ??).

Heh, we should have the PDF out in a week or two. We expect the beginning of April. We have one final editing sweep to do first.

joe b.

 

[afstanton]

Is there a way for us to be on some kind of notification list in case we miss the announcement here? I'd really like to get this.