[YB meta] Sash (and Yakuza) progression...

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Congratulations to Gray for making Platinum Sash!

Impressive.

There is one thing that nags me, though: When we discussed the different paths prior to launching YB2 it was my impression that Sashes' ability to prevent loss of belt rank by paying was exactly like the other paths' in the way that it was to buffer the fighter from going down in tier? Thus paying off would only be applicable when the Sash would otherwise go down in belt rank. The problem is, that while the buffer prevents the other paths of falling to quickly down thru the tiers, losses still makes it harder for them to advance up in the tiers; not so with the sashes where the current buffer system does what it is supposed to do by hindering the sash from going down a tier, but does too much by making it far easier to go up through the tiers, because you aren't really set back when you lose.

I realize this isn't clear in the rules, and that we obviously have decided this is not the way it should be, it still bugs me a little. I don't know if the fact that Sashes aren't easily demoted just balances it in other ways, I just found it conspicuous(sp?).

Oh and BTW do Yakuza "regain their luck" in one stroke, like Honor regain their honor - or eh not?

 

[graydoom]

*sigh*.

Thanks for the congrats.

IMO, the rules are quite clear on this. The whole confusion stems from buffer ranks being mentioned in the same sentence.

And also IMO, this is balanced due to Sashes being the weakest path for actual fights. While use of Bribe Judges can balance it out, even that is no gaurentee and it costs money, which is significant to a Sash.

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Yeah, you're probably right. Though I think a lot of the paths will claim they are the weakest. I for one think the Dark path is considerably weaker than the Yen path. I don't think Meowth happy with the Yakuza either (though god knows why considering the list of wins the plush one has managed to garner )

 

[Phoenix8008]

Gray, I know the rules are clear on this, that is not in debate here. But even with a sah character myself I still think that it should be limited to just buffering between tiers instead of every rank.

Look at your record of 14 wins and 13 losses. With any other path than Sash, you still have to win about twice as often as you lose to advance at all. I worked out with the Honor path the following. (Keep in mind that this is balancing trying to get as many defeats as possible while still advancing as fast as possible to illustrate the difference in records and the maximum use of the honor belt buffer ranks which are second best only to the Sash)

Starting at white belt he wins once to rise to yellow; loses three times down the yellow D3; wins 4 times to get to Green 0; loses thrice again down to D3; wins 6 times to get to Brown 0; loses three more down to Brown D3; then finally wins 8 to rise to Black Belt 0 which is equivelant with your current rank, Gray. This leaves him with a current record of 19 wins and 9 losses.

As you can see he still had to win more than twice as often as he lost to progress like this and usually there would be alot more bouncing back and forth inside the tier before rising that high anyway. I just think that this buffer for every rank makes it too easy and too quick to rise up the ladder of success.

The next two most powerful fighters are Meowth (Gang Lord 4 with a 13-4 record) and Orlandu (Brown Belt 1 with a 17-8 record). Obviously, if they had a 14-13 record, they would not be at their current height of power. (Unless they lost the first half dozen or so while they were white belts. I see that you did infact lose 5 in a row during your second stint as a white belt Gray, which weakens my case for changing this rule, but I don't believe it weakens it that much.)

I know you said that this buffer every rank helps to balance the Sash's lack of combat ablilities, and if that is so then I think they are overpowered with the easier access to Yen to make items that also boost their combat abilities so quickly. One or the other I could see as a balance, but both together seems a bit unbalanced to me.

If you are going to balance lack of combat abilities, then give them more combat abilities (which I think easier access to Items does), don't just make it easier for them to rise in rank that much faster than the other paths. With the rule like it is, no Sash with even a meager Yen intake will ever have to worry about dropping a single rank and that just doesn't seem right to me.

Once again, I'm not arguing on what the rules say here. They clearly state that the Sash can buy his way out of dropping at every rank. The rule is there. I'm just here advocating my opinion that the rule should be changed to only be possible every Tier instead if every Rank.

Please know that this is not an attack on you Graydoom, just an assault on a rule I feel is out of balance. Oh, and congrats on being the first to Tier 5!

 

[Phoenix8008]

Just so I'm not being all one-sided here, I thought I would also put in here the other reason that I have heard for this ability to be active at every rank instead of every Tier, even though it has nothing to do with balancing their combat weakness.

I heard that it may be there just so that the Yen which the sashes get more of gets distributed more freely and more often to other fighters. This keeps the YB economy going so to speak and keeps the other fighters gaining Yen more often. If this is the main reason behind this rule, then it becomes slightly more palatable but it still seems to give a pretty big advantage to the sashes.

Also, on LHH's comment about each path thinking it is the weakest in some way. He's correct. Each path has a weak spot and they are supposed to. They are not all equal in combat, but their abilities should keep them mostly balanced overall, if not in specific instances or situations.

 

[graydoom]

Heh. Actually, Phoenix, almost half of my record doesn't even matter for purposes of your count.

After my first nine matches, I had 1 win, 8 losses, and was completely back at the start. I was a White Belt 0, with absolutely nothing. No items, no yen, and a 1-8 record. I essentially had to start over, but my record stayed. Frankly, I'm amazed I have an even record. I've gotten very lucky.

I am at the rank I am at now because my record for my "second life" has been 13-5. If you are really trying to do an analysis by comparing records, that is the only one that matters. That is comparable to Meowth and to Orlandu. If I had lost 7 or 8 more times when I was actually paying to not drop, I certainly wouldn't be this high. I would be down a good deal... with that many losses, by money would quickly run out and I would start dropping.

If Meowth had ended his first 9 matches as 1-8 white belt with nothing, then gone on to win all the rest, he would be 14-12, and still Gang Lord 4. Orlandu would be 18-17... and Brown Belt 1. Would you complain about that? It's the same situation I'm in. You can't do an accurate count if you count all the losses before the "second life".

 

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, let's just compare your "second life" to the honor path then.

Starting at white belt, the fighter wins 1 to get Yellow belt 0, then losses three down to Yellow D3, wins 4 to get to Green belt 0, losses just twice down to Green belt D2, then wins 8 times to Brown Belt 2. That is an honor fighter with a record of 13 wins and 5 losses.

That honor fighter is exactly 5 ranks behind your character from having the exact same record. 5 ranks behind because during those 5 losses your character didn't drop any ranks.

Even worse, if we use your exact record and order of wins and losses (the whole thing or just the "second life"), and map it on the honor path progression, your character would actually be only a Brown Belt 0 at this time. That is a full 7 ranks of difference! So am I still complaining? I guess so a little bit...

You've had a very lucky winning streak, that is certain. But compare your winning streak as a sash that gets you to Platinum Sash 0 to the same winning streak as an Honor path fighter that would only get them to Brown Belt 0 and I think we see that luck is not the only factor here.

 

[reiella]

Hehe LHH...

Luck != Balance or judge interpretation of moves != balance .

It's easy enough to be fairly powerful while the 'weakest' if only because of luck... Case in point, see the white belt that beat Gray... Really boils down to a matter of luck.

On the yakuza instant recovery, I do believe their luck returns only one buffer rank at a time... Another matter of balance/flavor for the honored. At least that was how I remembered it proposed to the committee, at school so will go check the rules listing when I get home.

On note of the Sash progression, I still really feel that it may be worth waiting until there are more in the upper levels before concluding they are more powerful. Soon after YB2 came out, the Wudan tournament occured which really helped the Sashes in general. Alot of the yen garnered by that tournament ended up in sash hands (I'd prolly guess around half, with the other half in items currently).

Something of note also is that Gray has been pretty unlucky with generating yen moves at all, which does slant it in the opposite direction (currently, by MeowthBot logs he is 1in50 for generating a yen move)...

My personal opinion on this is possibly to see how it fair when another sash hits tier 3 at all. One very important thing to remember in terms of matches/balance is that luck doesn't equate to balance... Also I know I would be alot less willing to fight sashes if I didn't know that they would most likly end up giving me a gob of yen if I beat them.

 

[Wicht]

It might be noticed that the sash path is still the path I am most interested in tinkering with. This is because the actual mechanics of the path were a bit hard to predict.

Fight wise the Sash are weaker than any other path. The ease with which they can bribe judges and earn yen balances this out by allowing them to obtain magic items and negate their opponents best moves.

I really am not sure the ability to buffer at any rank is a problem so much as the amount of yen flowing in to the coffers. The yen coming in needs to be just the right amount. Too much coming in that the sash becomes too strong. Too little coming in and the sash is too weak. Looking at GD's Gray, I was thinking it was coming in just a little too fast, but without following every fight I couldn't be sure and for a while it was hard to follow the fights.

Thus my first solution was to tone down crowd pleaser just a tad. I think that GDs suggestion about raising the cost of the purchased powers was a good one too. Again, without knowing how much yen a sash at that level would have, its hard to predict. Currently Gray, at 5th tier should bring in about 7 yen a match I am guessing and if he loses 5 of those are down the drain.

Graydoom, you would know the best, how much yen do you make in an average fight? How much did you make at any given tier level?

 

[reiella]

Gray has currently only had one match at tier 5.

He gained all of 6 yen total, and lost 5 for the fight lose.

Not good enough I don't think yet to compose a coherent view yet though . (I don't really know for his Tier 4 fights)