DragonLancer
Hero
Apart from Eberron, I agree with your letter, Zander.
Yeah! I'm in Dragon (again). Want to argue?
- Thread starter Zander
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Orius
Unrepentant DM Supremacist
Oh, I agree with Zander too. I hate the dungeonpunk look myself.
Though I think Matt made good points too. Originally, the game was influenced by what fantasy was out there, Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance and so on. It's not really too much of a stretch to imagine that Harry Potter will influence the game to some degree eventually IMO. And the LotR movies to some extent too, thought they might reinforce older Tolkien rip-o — I mean earlier Tolkien influences rather than adding anything altogether new.
Though I think Matt made good points too. Originally, the game was influenced by what fantasy was out there, Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance and so on. It's not really too much of a stretch to imagine that Harry Potter will influence the game to some degree eventually IMO. And the LotR movies to some extent too, thought they might reinforce older Tolkien rip-o — I mean earlier Tolkien influences rather than adding anything altogether new.
Greylock
First Post
Zander, I picked up that issue a few days ago and read it at Schlotskies. Yur letter was hands down! my favorite part of the mag. You had my head nodding up and down, even though it caused much choking and gasping for air.
Now. Who should I sue? You, the deli, or the company that packaged the salami?
Now. Who should I sue? You, the deli, or the company that packaged the salami?
caudor
Adventurer
Congratulations for having your letter posted. I know it must be fun to grab a little spotlight now and then.
I agree with your letter as well. I'm not a fan of the 'Dungeonpunk' look myself, but I'll grow and adjust as new players add new flavors. Adding the flavor specifically to Eberron...nice idea.
By the way, I've seen several EnWorld members get letters posted in Dungeon and/or Dragon. How exactly do you do that? Do you use a certain email address? Or is there a submission address somewhere in the magazine (that I can't find)? I'd love to send them a letter sometime.
I agree with your letter as well. I'm not a fan of the 'Dungeonpunk' look myself, but I'll grow and adjust as new players add new flavors. Adding the flavor specifically to Eberron...nice idea.
By the way, I've seen several EnWorld members get letters posted in Dungeon and/or Dragon. How exactly do you do that? Do you use a certain email address? Or is there a submission address somewhere in the magazine (that I can't find)? I'd love to send them a letter sometime.
Incenjucar
Legend
As has been said, it'll change. It's the popular thing right now, probably because the recent generations seem to be increasingly -desperate- to identify themselves in various manners (Hot Topic exists, 'nuff said), largely by extreme behaviour or 'unique' appearance (like everyone else). Most of the people I'm around who don't do that spend their time doing bible studies and trying to be as dull as they possibly can, so, eh.
Just be glad the furry craze hasn't hit popular culture yet, amusing as it can sometimes be. I'll take tattooed rogues with spikes over rogues with fake cat ears and tiger striped armor any day.
Just be glad the furry craze hasn't hit popular culture yet, amusing as it can sometimes be. I'll take tattooed rogues with spikes over rogues with fake cat ears and tiger striped armor any day.
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Scribble
First Post
I'm in the middle on this one. (YEAHH WAY TO TAKE A STANCE!!! haha)
I agree with Zander, and his leter in that I'm not really fond of the current artwork/look of D&D. I long for the days of Elmore...
But I love the game.
So I agree with Matt. The game has to evolve in order to attract new players. The look and the feel. And it doesn't matter if the current incarnation isn't what's popular in a few years. Because if the designers are any good, they'll stay current, and a few years down the line the look of D&D will change too.
Is it good? Like I said I'm in the middle. I want my oldskool back! But at the same time if it needs to change to keep breathing, then change away.
I agree with Zander, and his leter in that I'm not really fond of the current artwork/look of D&D. I long for the days of Elmore...
But I love the game.
So I agree with Matt. The game has to evolve in order to attract new players. The look and the feel. And it doesn't matter if the current incarnation isn't what's popular in a few years. Because if the designers are any good, they'll stay current, and a few years down the line the look of D&D will change too.
Is it good? Like I said I'm in the middle. I want my oldskool back! But at the same time if it needs to change to keep breathing, then change away.
Of course who are any of us to say "That is/is not fantasy"? Final Fantasy is basically steampunk in some of the games. FF8 was really futuristic/modern. X is far future, but its back to steam pretty much. Original FF is almost pure fantasy....minus Warmech if you ever manage to make him show up heh.Crothian said:
Harry Potter is modern fantasy yes, but I still call anything with magic, faeries, boggins, etc fantasy, whether it has modern trappings or not.
Many of us grew up on Elmore art with the DragonLance series, BROM in Dark Sun, etc. I always felt the firm entrenching of fantasy style in the mid 70s for the rest of eternity was a bit ridiculous myself. Someone else made the excellent point about piercings/body mod and such going back for ages and they're completely right.
Fantasy art has definitely changed over the years and this is just the current style. Sorry if you don't like it. Wait for a new edition, it'll change again I'm sure.
Hagen
Terwox
First Post
hmm.
I like the dungeonpunk thing, to a degree. I don't really care if things stick to Tolkien or not -- I've never even read him. (The horror!) I like Harry Potter a lot more than Tolkien, when it comes down to it. (Although that's basing the potter books vs the Tolkien movie, which isn't fair, but it is ultimately my preference as of yet.)
The fashion thing doesn't mean that gamers will be lost -- if somebody games just because they see a newer picture and are like, "that's cool, I want to play this" -- that does not mean that when those pictures disappear, that they haven't already been sucked in by the rest of the wonderful joy that is gaming!
To reiterate -- Teen sees dungeonpunk picture and likes it, buys game, enjoys game on levels other than liking the pictures, pictures disappear, teen likes the rest of the game a lot more than teen ever liked the picture in the first place.
And I HIGHLY prefer the "dungeonpunk" attire over the "cheesecake" stuff of old. I'm glad to see that a large degree of modern covers don't look like they might be porn. Not that that's so bad, but it certainly gives the game a lot more of an air of credibility.
I like the dungeonpunk thing, to a degree. I don't really care if things stick to Tolkien or not -- I've never even read him. (The horror!) I like Harry Potter a lot more than Tolkien, when it comes down to it. (Although that's basing the potter books vs the Tolkien movie, which isn't fair, but it is ultimately my preference as of yet.)
The fashion thing doesn't mean that gamers will be lost -- if somebody games just because they see a newer picture and are like, "that's cool, I want to play this" -- that does not mean that when those pictures disappear, that they haven't already been sucked in by the rest of the wonderful joy that is gaming!
To reiterate -- Teen sees dungeonpunk picture and likes it, buys game, enjoys game on levels other than liking the pictures, pictures disappear, teen likes the rest of the game a lot more than teen ever liked the picture in the first place.
And I HIGHLY prefer the "dungeonpunk" attire over the "cheesecake" stuff of old. I'm glad to see that a large degree of modern covers don't look like they might be porn. Not that that's so bad, but it certainly gives the game a lot more of an air of credibility.
Here's a few random musings from a 22-year-old who has been playing D&D (on and off) since age 9, when my older brother and I would go to the park and play with some of his classmates.
- First, chainmail bikinis, and barbarians in loincloths, are humorous at best and embarassing at worst.
- I love Eberron. I love the idea of a fantasy world where magic actually impacts everyday life. I can't stand the 'traditional' D&D world where magic is super-rare and somehow fails to affect politics, warfare, or society in a meaningful manner.
- On a related note, I absolutely hate the (wish I could remember who coined this term) 'Epcot Center multiculturalism' of Forgotten Realms and other settings. Wow, we can take a real-world culture, reduce it to a set of stereotypes, add some monsters, and sell it to people. Snooze.
- Genres evolve over time. Here's an example: go rent the original version of The Manchurian Candidate - this is not a rhetorical statement; I actually went and did it because all the critics said (of the remake) "It's alright, but you should go and see the original." I dare you to sit through the entire thing. There's absolutely no 'suspense'; they hit you with the big surprise right up front at the beginning of it. The pacing of the movie is stilted, and the narration can be described as quaint at best. I'm not saying the Denzel Washington version is a masterpiece. I'm just saying, by contemporary standards, the original is awful. Times have changed. Movies have changed. Thrillers have changed.
Maybe a better way to say this is that I was just coming back to D&D shortly after the release of 3rd edition, when there was still a bunch of furious debate arguing whether or not the Sorceror made for a good addition to the core rules. I was pretty excited about the class until something occurred to me - the Sorceror uses the same casting mechanic as the Black Mage (all mages, really) from the original Final Fantasy - a game over 10 years old, whose mechanics are considered terribly dated by contemporary CRPG standard.
- I don't really mind elements stolen from Tolkien, but I don't see any reason to stick to them. Sacred cows are meant to be slaughtered.
- Sometimes I miss the illustrations from my AD&D 2nd ed books, those nice full-color, full-page ones. Not a lot of those in 3rd ed. And sometimes dungeonpunk goes a little overboard, and we end up with Iconics who look like Voldo from Soul Edge. But on the whole, I like the new watercolor sorts of illustrations, and the comic-book style illustrations.
- I think people who say 'kids will like it for the style, then leave when style changes' are underselling contemporary youth, the way adults always do and always will (and I'm sure I will in another ten years). After all, the style of D&D clearly appealed to them, and much of that has changed, and they're still here.
- First, chainmail bikinis, and barbarians in loincloths, are humorous at best and embarassing at worst.
- I love Eberron. I love the idea of a fantasy world where magic actually impacts everyday life. I can't stand the 'traditional' D&D world where magic is super-rare and somehow fails to affect politics, warfare, or society in a meaningful manner.
- On a related note, I absolutely hate the (wish I could remember who coined this term) 'Epcot Center multiculturalism' of Forgotten Realms and other settings. Wow, we can take a real-world culture, reduce it to a set of stereotypes, add some monsters, and sell it to people. Snooze.
- Genres evolve over time. Here's an example: go rent the original version of The Manchurian Candidate - this is not a rhetorical statement; I actually went and did it because all the critics said (of the remake) "It's alright, but you should go and see the original." I dare you to sit through the entire thing. There's absolutely no 'suspense'; they hit you with the big surprise right up front at the beginning of it. The pacing of the movie is stilted, and the narration can be described as quaint at best. I'm not saying the Denzel Washington version is a masterpiece. I'm just saying, by contemporary standards, the original is awful. Times have changed. Movies have changed. Thrillers have changed.
Maybe a better way to say this is that I was just coming back to D&D shortly after the release of 3rd edition, when there was still a bunch of furious debate arguing whether or not the Sorceror made for a good addition to the core rules. I was pretty excited about the class until something occurred to me - the Sorceror uses the same casting mechanic as the Black Mage (all mages, really) from the original Final Fantasy - a game over 10 years old, whose mechanics are considered terribly dated by contemporary CRPG standard.
- I don't really mind elements stolen from Tolkien, but I don't see any reason to stick to them. Sacred cows are meant to be slaughtered.
- Sometimes I miss the illustrations from my AD&D 2nd ed books, those nice full-color, full-page ones. Not a lot of those in 3rd ed. And sometimes dungeonpunk goes a little overboard, and we end up with Iconics who look like Voldo from Soul Edge. But on the whole, I like the new watercolor sorts of illustrations, and the comic-book style illustrations.
- I think people who say 'kids will like it for the style, then leave when style changes' are underselling contemporary youth, the way adults always do and always will (and I'm sure I will in another ten years). After all, the style of D&D clearly appealed to them, and much of that has changed, and they're still here.
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