Yeah! I'm in Dragon (again). Want to argue?

[Scribble]

- Genres evolve over time. Here's an example: go rent the original version of The Manchurian Candidate - this is not a rhetorical statement; I actually went and did it because all the critics said (of the remake) "It's alright, but you should go and see the original." I dare you to sit through the entire thing. There's absolutely no 'suspense'; they hit you with the big surprise right up front at the beginning of it. The pacing of the movie is stilted, and the narration can be described as quaint at best. I'm not saying the Denzel Washington version is a masterpiece. I'm just saying, by contemporary standards, the original is awful. Times have changed. Movies have changed. Thrillers have changed.

oh dear lord

 

[rkanodia]

oh dear lord

What's next? Is someone going to post and say that the infamous shower-stabbing scene in Psycho doesn't make them laugh out loud?

 

[Felon]

In general I agree with you, Zander, and I've seen firsthand the alienating effect that today's D&D has had on potential new gamers. People come to this game after being exposed to fantasy in other mediums, such as novels or movies, and think that it will be representative of the genre's conventions. But D&D has become so inbred, applying magic with such outrageous excess--with even fairly low-level characters flying around and hurling fireballs, slapping on magic rings so that they don't ever have to eat again--that it's nothing they can relate too. On at least a couple of instances I've heard some kids sum up what it is like to play D&D now: "like a video game...but slow!" Long-time gamers take for granted what seems completely over-the-top and ridiculous to somebody who thinks finding a magic sword should be a hallmark event in a character's career, not just a routine matter of course once a character reaches 5th level or so.

 

[DragonLancer]

- First, chainmail bikinis, and barbarians in loincloths, are humorous at best and embarassing at worst.

Chainmail bikini's I agree with. The fur loincloth clad barbarian is a staple of fantasy and theres nothing wrong with it.

- I love Eberron. I love the idea of a fantasy world where magic actually impacts everyday life. I can't stand the 'traditional' D&D world where magic is super-rare and somehow fails to affect politics, warfare, or society in a meaningful manner.

Doesn't appeal. I don't want my fantasy to be a mirror of technology but with magic instead of tech. But then I also don't want a world wwhere magic is so everywhere that castles and fortresses are made obsolete.

- On a related note, I absolutely hate the (wish I could remember who coined this term) 'Epcot Center multiculturalism' of Forgotten Realms and other settings. Wow, we can take a real-world culture, reduce it to a set of stereotypes, add some monsters, and sell it to people. Snooze.

No problem here. Its a fantasy world;. Its not meant to be discovery channel realistic.

- I don't really mind elements stolen from Tolkien, but I don't see any reason to stick to them. Sacred cows are meant to be slaughtered.

Tell that to a Hindu. Some things exist in D&D because they are a part of the game. Obviously you can change your own game, but the core game as is bought should not deviate from the original all that much. Thats why we have AC, HP, certain classes, and Tolkien-esqe races.

 

[warlord]

Zander I mostly agree with you. D&D does seem to be tailoring itself to a younger audience. I would like to see D&D be popular agin.(Maybe then I could find someone to play with?) But Harry Potter isn't fantasy its at best an insult if people don't stop J.K. Rowling soon she'll start killing wookies. Also Tolkien had no influence on D&D and he should never get any. He has his own game to infest with fat hobbits and uber-elves.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

I find myself agreeing with Zander's editorial, WotC should remain connected to classic fantasy (it's classic for a reason). What I worry about in Dragon editor's letters is the focus on attracting a much wider gaming audience. That's the demand of the corporate owners of our hobby. For WotC (and Hasbro) it's about money, every so often they must publish and market to justify their existence. Campaign settings and monster books will not stop coming and affecting the rest of WotC's products (see how many Eberron crittters are in the Aberrations minis). We have a symbiotic relationship with WotC, they produce and we buy. What I wonder is how much of WotC's customer base is really brand new to rpg's and how much is old-school AD&D and how much product each group buys respectively. From my experience it appears the old-schoolers are the ones laying out the bucks and new players come in much slower (it's an expensive hobby, and new players probably aren't as committed to its expense as WotC's production schedule would have you believe). Us old grognards will continue to gripe, WotC will continue to try to woo new players, and I hope the whole thing doesn't completely unravel before I get to 20th level!
P.S. And another substandard D&D movie will not attract new followers.

 

[Olive]

But D&D has become so inbred, applying magic with such outrageous excess--with even fairly low-level characters flying around and hurling fireballs, slapping on magic rings so that they don't ever have to eat again--that it's nothing they can relate too.

What do you mean 'has become'? I thought fly and fireball had always been 3rd level spells? And reading about the early days in those columns of Gary's certainly didn't make it sound like there was no magic items around. And how many years have we had the Forgotten realms around for now?

DnD has always been high magic.

 

[Janx]

But Harry Potter isn't fantasy its at best an insult if people don't stop J.K. Rowling soon she'll start killing wookies.

DUUUDE! I love killing wookies! And Ewoks, and Jawas, too!

Battlefront, The only game you get to fight for the glory of the empire! And kill wookies.

And the Psycho shower scene wasn't scary. But the private dic getting stabbed was.

This has been an off-topic post brought to you by...
Janx

 

[warlord]

Janx I was comparing her to R.A. Salvatore and not in a good way that dirty chewbacca killer.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

warlord said

Also Tolkien had no influence on D&D and he should never get any. He has his own game to infest with fat hobbits and uber-elves.

Err... ?

Tolkien's writing have influenced D&D for a long time now. No, it's not an all pervasive influence, but denying it's there is silly.

then someone else said

I find myself agreeing with Zander's editorial, WotC should remain connected to classic fantasy (it's classic for a reason).

What's "classic fantasy"?

Many of the works considered classics of fantasy are very, very different from one another in style and subject matter, and this has been true for the better part of a century.

There is no specific definition of what "classic fantasy" is - A Wizard of Earthsea is undeniably a fantasy classic, but it's very, very different from the Lord of the Rings. Likewise, Howard's Conan stories are fantasy classics, but so are the Chronicles of Narnia and Alice in Wonderland, and they couldn't be more different.

The tone and style of D&D has changed, and will continue to change as old styles falter and new styles come into favor - but implying the older editions were "connected to classic fantasy" is displaying considerable tunnel vision as to what the fantasy genre encompasses and what D&D can be.

Patrick Y.