Yeenoghu writeup

[Land Outcast]

¿Politics?

Balor: Bluff +31, Diplomacy +35, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Sense Motive +30

Yeenoghu: Bluff +6, Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (nature) +34, Sense Motive +37,

Juiblex: Bluff +28, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +30, Knowledge (religion) +30, Sense Motive +30

ROFML *bangs head against monitor* *settles sown again on the chair, puts a serious expression... lip starts twitching* *falls to the floor again* ROFML

 

[Imruphel]

Part of the problem is that the design of the demon lords seems to have been done in isolation from the rest of the ruleset. Shades of D&DG and the ELH, perhaps?

 

[Bryan898]

So I have a few questions to all those versed in the Abyss. I'm trying to get a better idea of the problem.

There are infinite (or 666) layers to the Abyss. Are there demon lords to each one? Maybe Balors are lords to their own layers, but simply aren't old enough or settled in enough to attain demon lord status? Or perphaps they simply aren't completely unique creatures.

Does every demon lord have balors in their service? I was under the impression that only the stronger of the demon lords had balors serving them. Perphaps Yeenoghu doesn't have a balor in his service. IIRC the creature listed as his followers in the BoVD was the Ghoul Lord, and he was only CR 11 or so.

Aren't the demon lords constantly fighting each other as well as the Blood War? I would think thats a lot to handle, and I doubt its easy to overthrow a layer of the Abyss. If random balor decided to dedicate his forces to overthrowing Yeenoghu's layer, wouldn't he weaken his own defenses and expose himself to being attacked by other demon lords? Chaotic Evil is generally held together simply by fear of death, can't this work on the large scale as well? Layers don't get into full scale wars because they fear retaliation from other layers when weakened.

 

[Ripzerai]

Are there demon lords to each one?

No. Not nearly.

Maybe Balors are lords to their own layers

A few of them are, but it's not typical.

Does every demon lord have balors in their service?

No.

IIRC the creature listed as his followers in the BoVD was the Ghoul Lord, and he was only CR 11 or so.

The King of the Ghouls rules an entire layer of the Abyss, and is a demigod according to Libris Mortis. An average Abyssal ghoul (Fiend Folio) is tougher than the alleged King of the Ghouls. The BoVD obviously made him ridiculously weak - because they made Yeenoghu ridiculously weak. It's a terrible spiral of lowered expectations.

Aren't the demon lords constantly fighting each other as well as the Blood War?

Yup.

If random balor decided to dedicate his forces to overthrowing Yeenoghu's layer, wouldn't he weaken his own defenses and expose himself to being attacked by other demon lords?

By that reasoning, nobody would ever attack anybody. This is clearly not the case, or the Abyss wouldn't be in a state of constant war.

 

[gizmo33]

I'll stick with Gygaxs view of the Abyss, so vividly displayed in the Gord novels thanks. Maybe I should have put it another way though. If you are big and tough, you kill any who challenge you. If you are weak, you hide or do the stronger creatures bidding. Lords are where they are because there are simply so few challengers. Other Lords. They cow entire layers into submission.

I can't argue with this at all - I think one of the best parts of the Gord novels is his characterization of the outer planes. Coincidentally certain parts of it were going through my mind as I was typing on this thread - although I think the examples I was thinking of were of Infestix and not demons, per se. Our difference is probably just how we measure power.

 

[gizmo33]

¿Politics?

Good point, but what do stats have to do with politics? First of all, I'm sure how stats besides Intimidate and Sense Motive really do a demon-lord any good. Bluff might have been useful if Yeenoghu was ever an underling, working his way out of the muck, but who says he was?

I'm sure stats have something to do with it, but I don't think it should be overstated. Someone's BAB has something to do with their combat ability, but having 1000 henchman, magic weapons and armor, and a superior tactical position tells the full story. Similarly with politics - the circumstances matter as much/more than the dice rolls (depending on how you DM things too).

 

[gizmo33]

By that reasoning, nobody would ever attack anybody. This is clearly not the case, or the Abyss wouldn't be in a state of constant war.

What Bryan's describing is power politics 101 though IMO. It's not that those circumstances always apply. A Balor who sees an opportunity to attack Yeenoghu under favorable circumstances will take that opportunity. This is exactly the reason why I argue that Yeenoghu could maintain a dominant position without being able to clearly dominate all other rivals in 1-1 combat. He simply dominates these political/strategic considerations in such a way that a Balor, although of sufficient power to challenge Yeenoghu personally (and success is not a given in that case anyway), does not have the opportunity and even sees success as being too full of risk.

Ultimately, a don't see how making Yeenoghu CR 25 or CR 30 really changes the equation. A CR 20 creature in a similar tactical position, with superior followers and the right circumstances is still going to kill Yeenoghu.

All I'm arguing is that a CR 20 monster could lord it over other CR 20 monsters under the right circumstances. Whether or not WotC has made this case in their design is another story - my guess from what people are saying is no. I wouldn't even try to defend a situation where the King of the Ghouls is less powerful than an Abyssal Ghoul - I think that's a case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.

 

[Ripzerai]

Good point, but what do stats have to do with politics?

Everything. Political acumen is as rigidly defined by the rules as intelligence or wisdom is. Exaggerating a character's political ability beyond what its stats allow isn't any different from similarly exaggerating its combat prowess.

Diplomacy defines politics as it's normally understood - making and maintaining alliances. Intimidate is a poor political tool, as it makes things worse once the intimidated soul is out of your presence. The intimidated demon, now nursing a grudge, then uses its superior diplomacy skill to get allies against you.

If you had used diplomacy instead, you might have an ally. As it is, you've created a passive-aggressive enemy (unfriendly or hostile, by default).

Someone's BAB has something to do with their combat ability, but having 1000 henchman, magic weapons and armor, and a superior tactical position tells the full story.

And someone with a higher Diplomacy score is probably going to have more allies (if not henchmen, which are derived directly from the Leadership feat) - and can quite possibly get a superior tactical position by dealing with others rather than having to blunder through an array of foes.

Similarly with politics - the circumstances matter as much/more than the dice rolls .

His circumstances are defined by his dice rolls. Unless you're suggesting that Yeenoghu became the ruler of two layers of the Abyss by bizarre coincidence (all his rivals had heart attacks on the same day) instead of any merit of his own.

 

[gizmo33]

Everything. Political acumen is as rigidly defined by the rules as intelligence or wisdom is. Exaggerating a character's political ability beyond what its stats allow isn't any different from similarly exaggerating its combat prowess.

What I'm talking about are favorable circumstances. Those aren't the same as an intelligence score. By that reasoning you could say that high intelligence must mean that you have lots of gold. And remember, I'm talking about two CR 20 creatures here, a Balor no advantage in personal power over Yeenoghu. What you're suggesting is that political power stems from nothing other than personal ability. I suppose that would mean that if I were as strong and smart as one of the Kennedys that I would have the same status in society.

If you had used diplomacy instead, you might have an ally. As it is, you've created a passive-aggressive enemy (unfriendly or hostile, by default).

Are we talking about politics in the Abyss or Canada? I guess this is just a matter of different gaming styles. "Passive-aggressive" would be an improvement in the disposition of the demons in my campaign. IMC demons do not have inner children. Were Yeenoghu able to reduce his followers to mere "passive-aggressive", he'd probably wonder what's wrong with them.

And someone with a higher Diplomacy score is probably going to have more allies (if not henchmen, which are derived directly from the Leadership feat) - and can quite possibly get a superior tactical position by dealing with others rather than having to blunder through an array of foes.

This is our basic difference, you are at least consistent. To you, Stats=Circumstances. To me - having seen characters with high stats fail, and low stats succeed due to choices and circumstances both in and out of their control, I believe there is a lot more to success.

His circumstances are defined by his dice rolls. Unless you're suggesting that Yeenoghu became the ruler of two layers of the Abyss by bizarre coincidence (all his rivals had heart attacks on the same day) instead of any merit of his own.

What dice rolls though? Ever try any PvP? My wizard got killed by 20 archers one time sent at him by another PC. I probably had better stats and higher charisma than that guy. Never got a chance to use them. IME Stats is not the same thing as Circumstances.

There's nothing to suggest (and the flavor text you quote from the 1E MM suggests otherwise) that Balors were ever on equal footing with Yeenoghu to the extent that it would come down to dice rolls in some sort of fair contest.

 

[JustaPlayer]

With these creatures ruling for millennia the circumstances aren't always going to be in a lords favor. Combine that with the fact the there are more Balors than lords and you have a formula that just doesn't work in a CE society. If it was LE like Hell, I might agree with you that stats don't matter.

Another thing I picture when I think about it are the recent Lolth book in FR. At times there were just spiders attacking whatever got in their way, including all the other spiders. Only the strongest survive in the end.

If a lord isn't strong, he's not going to survive.