Yeenoghu writeup

[Land Outcast]

Though perhaps your response is partly a rant against the CR chosen for Yeenoghu? In this case make him CR 100, but you're still going to have trouble when 4 100th level characters seek him out. There's really no way to win this hypothetical arms race.

The CR should be reasonable for someone who has been called a Demon Lord, if CRs 20 are hyper rare in the multiverse then a CR 20 might apply. But given that they aren't, a higher CR would be in place (say... 30?).

And I think the OP's problem was

I think it is great that WoTC offers tactics for monsters like Yeenoghu. I just wish they would think a bit more about those tactics, before committing them to print.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If I would slap a Paragon Template on him, give him a divine rank how would the 20th level party manage?

Well, now we're being silly.

If the thread is talking about the demon lord as he appears on the website is one thing. But now we're going back to, "I shot you." and the person being shot going "No."

As written, he's getting trashed by a typical party unlike say Cthulhu in his official write up, who went through several groups of 20th level adventurers.

I'm not saying he can't be modified. As written, and with those pitiful tactics listed with him, and that equipment, he's getting whipped. "Man, can't believe this guy cast Bull's Strength on himself eh?" "Yeah, just made it easier to power attack him to the dirt!"

Pretty soon now when people start finding the errors in the stat blocks we'll have excuses for those. "Well, those are being worked on. No seriously, WoTC has editors and everything."

 

[catsclaw227]

Well, now we're being silly.

If the thread is talking about the demon lord as he appears on the website is one thing. But now we're going back to, "I shot you." and the person being shot going "No."

My intention wasn't to advocate the existing statblocks. I also find them flawed. My solution was a quick fix I plan on using in my game.

Adding a paragon template and a divine rank to make him toughter for a lvl 20 party isn't silly, it's just a optional solution.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I think it boils down to the question:
If the Demon Lords are all in the lower 20 CR, why are they still alive and ruling their layers?
In the MMs and Fiend Folio are enough Critters of 20+ CR that are unnamed beasts -one of many.
Even the Dragons in their older age categories can whip the Lords.
Or, even better, in the existing Campaigns most powerful Creatures or NPCs can kick the Lords backsides singlehandedly (eg. Elminster).
Now, you say, they have minions. A lot of them. They add to the effective power of a lord.
Well, as the whole bunch is chaotic evil, minions will follow a leader only as long as he is perceived stronger than themselves and is able to cow them into submission.
This is done through bluff and intimidation for the lower powered critters. But it does only work so long for say the bigger balors around. Eventually some Demon will challange a Lord for a fight. And even if the balor can not beat him, if the lord has problems during the fight or is seriously wounded, every run-of-the-mill balor will try its luck.

And if it is an Avatar, why not state this explicitly?

 

[Imruphel]

It's not just these pseudo-lords that are poorly designed; the tanar'ri have no underlying design logic whatsoever. Have many have special abilities and qualities that actually reflect their respective roles? They're just random grab-bags of powers.

Chaotic evil monsters does not equal chaotic stupid design (um, actually it does but it shouldn't).

 

[lukelightning]

And if it is an Avatar, why not state this explicitly?

Do demon lords have avatars? They're not deities; I was under the assumption that they are each singular, concrete, physical beings, not facets of a greater being or anything like that.

 

[DaveMage]

Do demon lords have avatars? They're not deities; I was under the assumption that they are each singular, concrete, physical beings, not facets of a greater being or anything like that.

It depends on your campaign.

The whole idea, though, is probably based on the old 1E rules that if you killed the "material form" of a demon on the prime material plane (or any plane outside its home plane) you gained a certain amount of xp, but if you defeated the lord on his or her home plane, the xp award was multiplied by 10.

So, rather than "avatars," think of them as the "material form" of the lord.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Do demon lords have avatars? They're not deities; I was under the assumption that they are each singular, concrete, physical beings, not facets of a greater being or anything like that.

Well, there are already aspects for these creatures (CR 10ish) printed in various sources, so why not avatars. But I am with the others who have said it. If these are avatars like the autors suggest, why isn't it noted.

A.) Because they weren't meant to be written as avatars. This is being done for the people who want to fight the real thing at 20th level.... errrrrr 16th level.

 

[lukelightning]

I have no problem with a CR20 demon lord. A DM can include this as an adversary if he wishes or not. By most standards, a level 20 PC is one of the mightiest mortals in the world, what better foe than a demon lord?

And just because there are CR 23 dragons or whatever doesn't mean the demon lord would be squashed by such creatures; there is no reason the DM needs to include half-fiend great wyrm red dragons in his campaign, etc.

 

[gizmo33]

IMC great wyrm red dragons, titans, and the other CR 20+ monsters are all named, rare and important beings. I never took it as a requirement that all unnamed creatures are common. No cities of Titans IMC. This could go for Balors as well. In 1st edition, there were only six known Type VI demons.

I think a strong opinion about the demon lord CR issue requires an opinion about abyssal demographics. A CR 20 creature is completely capable of dominating CR 14 demons and weaker, of which there are plenty in the SRD at least. With groups of CR 14 creatures thus dominated, the loyalty of CR 17 and 20 demons is more easily assured.

The idea that demon lords would have to battle more than one demon single-handedly IMO is not understanding politics - even chaotic evil politics. Granted, there's no sociological study of Chaotic Evil that I know of. However, there are a number of points I think that contest this picture of Yeenoghu having to beat all of his underlings simultaneously in order to justify his rulership.

Nobody wants to be the first balor to step out of line. The other balors will kill that balor and say "He was going to rebel against you m'lord, can we have his stuff?" Anyone who says they're going to join your rebellion is possibly lying, and the price of failure is eternal torture, so who would take the chance? No complicated creed required, this is just simple self-preservation in a dictatorship.

Any two balors wanting to rebel know that they will eventually have to kill the other in order to be the sole ruler (I can't imagine co-regents in the Abyss). This means that the two will probably be fighting each other before the rebellion is able to get underway.

Conceivably, there are many weaker demons who have important posts serving Yeenoghu. Those creatures would probably all be lunch and replaced were the "balor rebellion" to succeed. It's in their interest to spy on the balors and each other to make sure no one is going to mess up a good thing. (Again, I'm not sure Balors would even serve a demon lord)

Granted, you could take an extremist view of what Chaotic means in the Abyss and argue something like that demons would just go crazy every once in a while, heedless of the possibility of eternal torture, and just try to kill Yeenoghu as a mob for the heck of it. While that's possible, I doubt that any of the persons objecting to the CR 20 demon lord has given his CR 30+ demon lord so few followers that the same possibility doesn't exist in that scenario as well.

IMO at some point, any demon lord of less than CR 100 is going to have to competently manage politics if he has anything but a trivial set of followers.