Yeenoghu writeup

[Shade]

In all fairness, Yeenoghu's tactics are reprinted almost word-for-word from the more powerful Book of Vile Darkness version. So don't be hatin' on the Fiendish Codex authors for that.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In all fairness, Yeenoghu's tactics are reprinted almost word-for-word from the more powerful Book of Vile Darkness version. So don't be hatin' on the Fiendish Codex authors for that.

Just the lazy editors.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think it boils down to the question:
If the Demon Lords are all in the lower 20 CR, why are they still alive and ruling their layers?
In the MMs and Fiend Folio are enough Critters of 20+ CR that are unnamed beasts -one of many.
Even the Dragons in their older age categories can whip the Lords.
Or, even better, in the existing Campaigns most powerful Creatures or NPCs can kick the Lords backsides singlehandedly (eg. Elminster).
Now, you say, they have minions. A lot of them. They add to the effective power of a lord.
Well, as the whole bunch is chaotic evil, minions will follow a leader only as long as he is perceived stronger than themselves and is able to cow them into submission.
This is done through bluff and intimidation for the lower powered critters. But it does only work so long for say the bigger balors around. Eventually some Demon will challange a Lord for a fight. And even if the balor can not beat him, if the lord has problems during the fight or is seriously wounded, every run-of-the-mill balor will try its luck.

And if it is an Avatar, why not state this explicitly?

This is my problem with the 3.x version of demons as well. Very poorly handled IMO. If they are going to have CR20 Demon Lords, why did they make Balors CR20 as well? And then you have the Dragon Mag articles that have other demon princes that don't mesh with stuff in WOTC books. IMC Demon Lords, and especially Demon Princes are significantly more powerful than "mere" Balors and other greater Demons.

 

[Ripzerai]

A CR 20 creature is completely capable of dominating CR 14 demons and weaker, of which there are plenty in the SRD at least.

Precisely, which is why balors are, according to their flavor text, the generals of great Abyssal armies.

With groups of CR 14 creatures thus dominated, the loyalty of CR 17 and 20 demons is more easily assured.

Well, exactly. So balors will have as many thralls of that power level as CR 20 Abyssal lords have.

The question is, is that what you want from your Abyss? Do you want balors running around with as much power and followers as Baphomet and Yeenoghu have, or do you see the unique demons as representing another tier altogether?

Nobody wants to be the first balor to step out of line.

There's no chance of that happening, as no balor is going to be "in line" to begin with. They'll be busy with their own armies and fortresses, not working for some punk gnoll or minotaur.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Just a quick note. When demons aren't fighting devils, guess what..... they are fighting each other. That's how demons root out the week and gain more power. Demons kill or are killed.

 

[gizmo33]

Precisely, which is why balors are, according to their flavor text, the generals of great Abyssal armies.

Well, I guess I should admit that I'm not well versed on each versions flavor text. Are the abyssal armies pan-Abyssal forces that are not under the control of any one demon lord? Or is each lord assumed to have several armies?

Well, exactly. So balors will have as many thralls of that power level as CR 20 Abyssal lords have.

Actually I disagree. IMO you're equating CR with political power. One certainly is related to the other in a "dog-eat-dog" environment, but a CR 20 creature with luck and political savy is more powerful than a CR 20 creature without it.

The question is, is that what you want from your Abyss? Do you want balors running around with as much power and followers as Baphomet and Yeenoghu have, or do you see the unique demons as representing another tier altogether?

IMO perhaps it doesn't make sense to talk about demon lords vs. unamed demons and using Balor's as an example because Balor's are an exception in power levels. Then again I'm not well-versed on the myriad of demons outside of the SRD. Also, there are issues of how pre-published settings like Forgotten Realms mesh with this - people IMO have a valid complaint if the demon lords are underpowered with respect to certain NPCs in any given campaign setting. If the average level of hero is 50th in your campaign, then I definitely see that there is a problem.

So I'm assuming that we're just looking at other demons from the SRD, in which case we're only talking about Balors IIRC. And so the issue has as much to do with the way you envision Balors. As I said with Titans, IMC I would never have a nameless CR 20 creature just bumble into a dungeon - creatures of that power are ancient and named.

The primary difference between Balors (or the equiv) in my campaign and demon lord is a host of abilities that don't show up in the stat blocks. Details aside, if a demon lord has worshippers then a demon lord probably has divine ranks. As I said in a previous post, IMO you have to assume that each demon lord has had a measure of political success in it's area. Through luck and unique circumstances they've managed to find themselves in a situation where they are controlling things. One single other balor demon in a household of Yeenoghu is not going to be successful rebelling because Y would have a myriad of advantages. Yeenoghu appears to greatly out-class any other "common" demon.

It relates to my post about Y's battle tactics. The Hordes book is doing a disservice to the demon lords if it's presenting them as stat blocks and not giving the DM any guidance on what resources the demon lord has to crush rivals other than his sheer personal prowess. I would write a whole section on quasits and their relationship to demon lords, for example.

There's no chance of that happening, as no balor is going to be "in line" to begin with. They'll be busy with their own armies and fortresses, not working for some punk gnoll or minotaur.

Again, an army and fortress could possibly, as in the real world, require something other than sheer brute force to create. Balors very well could be late-comers to the Abyssal scene (you could extrapolate from 1st edition flavor text to reach this conclusion). In this case a Balor shows up to the Abyss and instantly falls to worshipping a demon lord or else is torn apart by the demon lord's minions. I don't see the time for fortress/army building in this case.

I admit that I've probably gone beyond the Hordes book to try to make the case for this. I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" for having CR 30 demon lords in their game. If the Hordes book does not present the setting in the kind of detail necessary for you to see what I'm saying (because I'm arguing from my personal vision of the Abyss, not having read the book) then I think the Hordes book is falling short. I think "correcting" the problem with a better understanding of a demon lord's resources and situation creates a richer setting than just jacking up the CR. There's a limit to this, certainly, but it's not like Yeenoghu is CR 10 or something.

 

[gizmo33]

Just a quick note. When demons aren't fighting devils, guess what..... they are fighting each other. That's how demons root out the week and gain more power. Demons kill or are killed.

So in an Abyss that wasn't created yesterday, how is it populated by CR 6 creatures? Wouldn't they have all been eaten? Taking your view of this, and making Yeenoghu a CR 30 creature, wouldn't all the Balors that serve him simply commence to fighting each other? There's not way a CR 30 creature is going to be able to stop creatures from fighting each other - and in this situation of utter chaos why would it?

Ultimately, if you use a vision of "pure chaos" for the Abyss, then I have a hard time seeing how the concept of "demon lord" could exist - at whatever CR you would choose.

So my personal "guess" is that they're not fighting each other. There are more behaviours and activities covered under "chaotic evil" than mindless violence IMC. The flavor text for the Quasit in the SRD suggests to me that those guys aren't fighting anybody if they can help it.

 

[JustaPlayer]

So in an Abyss that wasn't created yesterday, how is it populated by CR 6 creatures? Wouldn't they have all been eaten? Taking your view of this, and making Yeenoghu a CR 30 creature, wouldn't all the Balors that serve him simply commence to fighting each other? There's not way a CR 30 creature is going to be able to stop creatures from fighting each other - and in this situation of utter chaos why would it?

Ultimately, if you use a vision of "pure chaos" for the Abyss, then I have a hard time seeing how the concept of "demon lord" could exist - at whatever CR you would choose.

So my personal "guess" is that they're not fighting each other. There are more behaviours and activities covered under "chaotic evil" than mindless violence IMC. The flavor text for the Quasit in the SRD suggests to me that those guys aren't fighting anybody if they can help it.

I'll stick with Gygaxs view of the Abyss, so vividly displayed in the Gord novels thanks. Maybe I should have put it another way though. If you are big and tough, you kill any who challenge you. If you are weak, you hide or do the stronger creatures bidding. Lords are where they are because there are simply so few challengers. Other Lords. They cow entire layers into submission.

 

[Ripzerai]

Are the abyssal armies pan-Abyssal forces that are not under the control of any one demon lord? Or is each lord assumed to have several armies?

Both, really. There are armies led by balors, not under the control of any lords, and the lords have their own armies.

One certainly is related to the other in a "dog-eat-dog" environment, but a CR 20 creature with luck and political savy is more powerful than a CR 20 creature without it.

Balors, by definition, are leaders among the tanar'ri. If you don't have political savvy, you don't become a balor - you become a kind of demon more suited to becoming a minion type.

Really, when comparing a typical balor to a typical Abyssal lord, raw power is the only real difference.

(you could extrapolate from 1st edition flavor text)

Actually, that's what I was doing, in part.

This is the 1st edition flavor text on Type VI demons:

"Naturally, the demon will attempt to assume/usurp command at every opportunity. Many chaotic evil monsters are drawn to the strong evil charisma of this creature, and of all its kind, the type VI demon tends toward a more organized evil (which makes it less than popular with demon lords and princes)." - 1eMM, 19

There's a limit to this, certainly

The lower limit is 21.

 

[Matafuego]

¿Politics?

Balor: Bluff +31, Diplomacy +35, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Sense Motive +30

Yeenoghu: Bluff +6, Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (nature) +34, Sense Motive +37,

Juiblex: Bluff +28, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +30, Knowledge (religion) +30, Sense Motive +30

Bluff: BALOR
Diplomacy: BALOR
Intimidate: BALOR + Yeenoghu
Knowledge(?): It depends...
Sense Motive: Yeenoghu