Yet more Artificer confusion- Item Creation this time...

[UltimaGabe]

Alright, I've reached another point of confusion with the Artificer- this time I'm confused about part of the Item Creation process.

I've read over the Artificer ability description several times, and I'm just not sure about something. I'm pretty sure the main question is this: Can an Artificer make items at a different caster level than the minimum (or different from the caster level presented, in the case of Wondrous Items)? If so, what's the limitation? For example, let's say an Artificer wanted to make a scroll of Fireball at 7th level rather than 5th level, the minimum. What would he have to do to do so? Is he limited by his Artificer level? In other words, can a 5th-level Artificer make a 7th-level scroll? If so, what would the UMD DC be? The Item Creation ability description vaguely answers this, saying that in regards to item prerequisites, treat your caster level as your Artificer level +2. But then it says that the item created doesn't actually have that as its caster level- with the example being a scroll of Fireball made by a 3rd-level Artificer would do 3d6 rather than 5d6, since the ACTUAL caster level was 3, while the EFFECTIVE caster level was 5. In this example, they list the cost and the xp cost, but they fail to mention the UMD DC for such an action. Would you have to make a Use Magic Device check of 23 (since it's 20 + caster level), or 25 (since it's 20 + caster level)? The confusion doesn't even end there.

Let's say a 7th-level Artificer wants to make a scroll of Fireball. Could he make it at 7th-level, paying all of the increased costs (the higher GP and XP costs for a higher caster level) and even making a higher DC (27), or can he only make the minimum? If he's allowed to make it higher levels, is he limited by his Artificer level? The rules simply aren't clear on this.

Is there anyone out there that can explain Item Creation for an Artificer in a way I can understand? Because it seems simple when you want to make something that's exactly spelled out in the book, but once you want to make something of your own there's no basis for it. Please help.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'm hoping for a reprint/write of the Artificer in Complete Adventurer to hopefully clear some of this up. Probably too much to ask, a full Sage Advice/Web article is more likely.

On this issue, my read was that the maximum Caster level an artificer could actually give to an item was his actual Artificer level. And given the option to create one of lower caster level it would follow the normal item minimum.

The +2 CL bonus for item creation does not factor into the actual item CL, but only for purposes of when the item could be created.

Some examples:
3rd Artificer > Scroll of Fireball (UMD 20+5 for minimum level for Fireball scroll, cost determined from there) but the actual CL is limited to 3rd since that is the Artificer level.
Base cost: 375g - CL 3

4th Artificer > Scroll of Fireball (same as above); actual CL is 4th (cannot voluntarily lower it to 3rd, but cannot also grant it 5th CL).
Base cost: 375g - CL 4

5th Artificer > Scroll of Fireball (same as above); actual CL is 5th (again cannot lower it to 3rd voluntarily)
Base cost: 375g - CL 5 (as normal minimum)

10th Artificer > Scroll of Fireball (UMD+effective level, cost determined from there); CL is the level used for the calculation - could be anywhere from 10th down to 5th.
Base cost: 3 x CL x 25g - CL set between minimum of Artificer level and minimum of spell level.

The inability to voluntarily lower the CL below the normal minimum isn't a big deal since the cost is the minimum across the board even if the actual CL is lower.

For example, let's say an Artificer wanted to make a scroll of Fireball at 7th level rather than 5th level, the minimum.

My interpretation would be that he can emulate the CL of 7 for the purposes of creating the item (prereqs) but the actual CL could not actually be higher than his CL. In other words he could shoot for a higher level (UMD 20+7) and pay for a higher level (3 x 7 x 25g) but not actually get a scroll of that level: his scroll CL would be 5th.

Would you have to make a Use Magic Device check of 23 (since it's 20 + caster level), or 25 (since it's 20 + caster level)?

UMD is set by the normal minimum CL. DC 25. And you get a gimped item for your effort for creating items beyond your Artificer level.

Could <7th Artificer> make it at 7th-level, paying all of the increased costs (the higher GP and XP costs for a higher caster level) and even making a higher DC (27), or can he only make the minimum? If he's allowed to make it higher levels, is he limited by his Artificer level?

He can make an item up to his class level, same as any other caster. The confusing part is that he can make some items with item requirements beyond his actual level but at the normal minimum cost. I don't see a limitation on making items below his level and at or above the normal minimum.

I'll agree that it's not clear from the text.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Alright... thanks. That helped clear up a bunch of confusion, I think. I'm still probably confused about things, but I'll post them when I remember them.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Alright, I think I've got a question.

Aside from Scrolls and Potions, things that can be easily figured out by changing caster level, how does the Artificer handle items with a set caster level in the DMG, such as magic weapon abilities or Wondrous Items?

as far as weapons go, I understand that the 3 x enhancement rule is a "requirement", but most of the other abilities simply have caster levels tied to them (which, I'm assuming, is the generic caster level for one found in a dungeon). It was clarified that these caster levels are not prerequisites, just the average level an adventurer would make one. Or something. But does an Artificer need to make a Use Magic Device check to emulate the item's requisite spells AND the caster level of the item, or just the requisite spells? I thought it was just the requisite spells, but one of the examples in the Ebberron campaign setting book was a Bottle of Air, which they stated you must emulate the caster level of 7th in order to make it. Does this apply to all items? If so, is it possible to make it at a lower caster level, since it's not a prerequisite?

Let me explain. Let's say an Artificer wants to make a Universal Solvent. It has a caster level of 20th, and requires Disintegrate to make. A Wizard could easily make a Universal Solvent at an 11th level caster, since all he needs to make it is Disintegrate, a 6th-level spell. So when an Artificer wants to make it, he has to emulate the Disintegrate spell, but does he also need to make a UMD check of 40 (20 + caster level 20) to make it? Would it be possible to make one at a lower level, since Wizards could make it at a lower level?

I hope that makes sense.

 

[glass]

It was clarified that these caster levels are not prerequisites, just the average level an adventurer would make one. Or something.

I am pretty sure it was 'clarified' back again. In any case, the Ecs description seems to imply quite strongly that caster level is a pre-req.


glass.

 

[jodyjohnson]

The caster level entry is considered a requirement by the Living Greyhawk campaign as well. I believe the rules as written still make it a requirement.

Many including myself have house ruled it to the original intent as stated by Monte. It still retains it's house rule status.

Officially the Solvent could be made by an Artificer at 18th with a CL of 18 while an arcane caster would need to be 20th. It could also be made at Artificer 20th as a 20th item.

For the house ruled campaigns, it could be made at 9th which would be sufficient to emulate Disintegrate and its CL would be 9th instead of CL 11 minimum of the normal version. Cost would be book cost either way.

Artificers would just follow the same rule as other crafters regarding whether the CL entry is added to the Prerequisite entry for all cases.

 

[nookleer]

Tsk tsk

I too have a little trouble with item creation, although I understand very clearly how to make single use and charged items.

Level prerequisites are necessary. The only time an artificer can create an object below its requisite level is when the level is set by a spell. For example:

DUST OF DISAPPEARANCE: This dust looks just like dust of appearance and is typically stored in the same manner. A creature or objecttouched by it becomes invisible (as greater invisibility). Normal vision can't see dusted creatures or objects, nor can they be detected by magical means, including see invisibility or invisibility purge. Dust of appearance, however, does reveal people and objects made invisible by dust of disappearance. Other factors, such as sound and smell, also allow for possible detection.

The greater invisibility bestowed by the dust lasts for 2d6 rounds. The invisible creature doesn't know when the duration will end.

Moderate illusion; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater invisibility; Price 3,500gp

In this case the level is set by the spell greater invisibility. This means that if an artificer, who has craft wondrous item by level 5 wants to, he can create this object with no negative effects.

Some things, most noteably Universal Solvent and Sovereign Glue, have a high level because they are extremely useful and powerful. I can think of ways to eradicate entire castles and caves with sovereign glue. DRAGONS can be defeated with sovereign glue. And let's not get into what I could do with a liquid that can dissolve anything given sufficient time. Your players must be none too creative (I actually wanted to say bright) that you see no harm in given them access to these things. My DM spends hours trying to figure ways to KEEP me from abusing things. They have that level there for a reason.

And it has nothing to do with spell levels or feat levels.

Now if i could only figure out Wondrous Items and Staves.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I can think of ways to eradicate entire castles and caves with sovereign glue. DRAGONS can be defeated with sovereign glue. And let's not get into what I could do with a liquid that can dissolve anything given sufficient time. Your players must be none too creative (I actually wanted to say bright) that you see no harm in given them access to these things.

Sovereign Glue: This pale amber substance is thick and viscous. ... One ounce of this adhesive covers 1 square foot of surface, bonding virtually any two substances together in a permanent union. The glue takes 1 round to set. If the objects are pulled apart (a move action) before that time has elapsed, that application of the glue loses its stickiness and is worthless. If the glue is allowed to set, then attempting to separate the two bonded objects has no effect, except when universal solvent is applied to the bond. (Sovereign glue is dissolved by universal solvent.)
Strong transmutation; CL 20th; Craft Wondrous Item, make whole; Price 2,400 gp (per ounce).

Defeating a sleeping dragon with this? Anything awake just moves and breaks the bond. Maybe you're not playing 3.5.

Universal Solvent: This substance has the unique property of being able to dissolve sovereign glue and tanglefoot bags. Applying the solvent is a standard action.
Strong transmutation; CL 20th; Craft Wondrous Item, disintegrate; Price 50 gp.

What can you do with Universal Solvent that Disintegrate doesn't do? Maybe the PHB text says 'dissolve anything' but I doubt it.

My DM spends hours trying to figure ways to KEEP me from abusing things.

Welcome to the boards. List a few of your abuses here. We love the challenge.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Um... did anyone else notice that I started this thread almost a year ago?

 

[jodyjohnson]

9 months does not a year make.

But yes I noticed. This came out weeks after the ECS and a few things have been clarified since then.

If someone implies your group is 'none too bright' it's hard not to take the bait.