D&D 4E You Don't Need a Healer in 4E... Yeah Right!

[AllisterH]

I think that's the change from 3.x

In 1e/2e, it made sense to have a cleric use their ealign slots to actually heal because quite frankly, it was th e best option for the cleric (few other options) and the damage done by monsters wasn't that intense that an appropriate level heal would not negate all of said damage.

When 3.x came in, not only did clerics (and druids) have better options than to waste a round to heal, but the fact was that healing became underpowered with regard to the damage done by the appropriate level foe. Take a look at the difference in damage a 11CR11 foe can do in 3.x and compare it to 1e/2e where the self samae monster was attacking.

In 4E, it actually is cost-effective to actually heal in combat.

I think the big difference is that you don't need a healer AFTER combat in 4E. The characters can heal themselves via the second wind mechancisevery 5 minutes. This is in direct contrast with 3.x where you either had a healer blow their slots all on healing AFTER battle or you had a party with the ubitquitous CLW wand.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Nah, an optimised 3e party annihilates just about any encounter of their level + 2 in 2 rounds max.
Dead foes deal no pain.

 

[Victoly]

That little drop of healing that the words provide is nice and all, but usually it just amounts to cancelling out one attack's worth of damage.

Spending a minor action to cancel out a monster's standard action? Not a bad trade-off if you ask me.

 

[Gort]

Spending a minor action to cancel out a monster's standard action? Not a bad trade-off if you ask me.

I'd also argue that it cancels more than a standard action. They have to hit, first, which isn't guaranteed, and then it also depends on how good a healer your leader is, and how tough the person being healed is. The dragonborn fighter in my party was healing an average of 16 points of damage when the human cleric healed him. That's better than most monsters at that level can critical for!

I think the big difference between 3e healing and 4e healing is that you can do decent out-of-combat healing in 4e without a healer, while in 3e you just couldn't. There's a huge difference between spending 2 weeks healing up and spending 5 minutes.

Certain race/feat choices make the leaderless party more viable, such as the dwarf race, or the durable feat. Using your second wind as a minor action is a pretty huge upgrade from a standard action.

I think the big difference is that you don't need a healer AFTER combat in 4E. The characters can heal themselves via the second wind mechancisevery 5 minutes. This is in direct contrast with 3.x where you either had a healer blow their slots all on healing AFTER battle or you had a party with the ubitquitous CLW wand.

Oh, I just noticed that AllisterH said exactly the same thing as me

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Spending a minor action to cancel out a monster's standard action? Not a bad trade-off if you ask me.

That's the HUGE thing, honestly, is not having to use my main action to heal someone if they need it.

That, in my opinion, makes playing healer/leader types bearable.

Brad

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Old Gumphrey: you might want to explain the effects you are using, the characters are supposed to know what powers are currently in effect, so you are supposed to (after the flavour) say: and if you don't get out of the vexing cloud you get a penalty to hit and you can't move without puking on yourself...

It does sound like your players are a bit confused, you are right about that though...

Yeah, I told them. I'd be lying if I said it didn't do anything; the characters would notice. Not that it made any difference.

 

[AtomicPope]

Yeah my players are "button mashers". They don't really understand how to set themselves up for dailies, often just repeat the same at-will attacks (and then complain about boredom and combat length) in difficult fights, and only use action points when prompted. We've got a paladin/warlord, fighter/warlock, rogue/ranger, and wizard/cleric (yes, that is all 8 classes; no, it still doesn't matter).

Someone hits the ground every single fight, no matter what. I'll bloody the 3rd level fighter in the surprise round with like 2 level 1 goblin blackblades...then he'll miss his brute strike, second wind, miss the brute strike again, forget marks, forget his regeneration...4e combat is a lot more fiddly than I first thought. I can't really blame them for rolling poorly, but hey. When you park in the goblin hexer's Vexing Cloud and wonder why you can't hit anything...

So bad tactics are very deadly to a group. That sucks for people who don't like playing tactically. I guess I could just keep trying to give them pointers (you know, if you guys move out of that cloud and kill the leader it will go away and he'll stop blinding you and making you puke on yourself every time you move), but I always feel like I'm giving the fight away if I do that.

My players is dumb ><

OMG

This is the group I'm DMing! Swear!

Recently I killed the Avenging Paladin. A Flaming Skeleton blasted him and set him on fire. My goal was to "use up dailies" by setting the party on fire and force the Cleric to use his big daily. So minions shot everyone, one at a time causing a few points here and there. The FS would set Defenders on fire to keep their HP down. So how did the Pally die? He never used Lay on Hands. Nor did he use his Healing Smite (or whatever it's called). I couldn't hit him in HtH so I just ignored him and he burned to death.

How many Lay on Hands did he have? Two left.

Did he use his Channel Divinity to boost his Save? Nope.

Did he still have his Second Wind? Yes.

How much damage did the fire do? 5 pts each round.


After growing bitter and blaming everyone else I told him it's all your fault. Don't blame the leaders (there's both a Warlord AND a Cleric but they didn't wade 60ft ahead like he did). Defenders can heal themselves.


Players need to Lrn2Ply

 

[AtomicPope]

I think that good players can play without a Leader. If you have an extra controller or an extra Defender a group can survive w/o a Leader.

Good Defenders can tie up mobs, draw attacks and heal themselves. It takes some know-how to pick a good time to use Second Wind and keep opponents Marked.

Good Controllers could keep slowing, sliding and pushing Monsters keeping them at a distance. With multiple Wizards using Ray of Frost, Icy Terrain, and Thunderwave even Brutes will be out of HtH for a while. A good Wizard player can pull off some amazing tricks.


What a Leader does do is they make it easy to work as a team and keep that team moving/functioning. Any group of good of solid players can work as a team but w/o a leader they'll lack the easy "come back" abilities of quick healing. I certainly believe it's possible to play well without a Leader. But a Leader allows you to recover quickly when the dice gods betray you.

 

[bardolph]

Without a Leader, the party should try to specialize in Hit and Run tactics. Even without a leader, your party will have the same number of Healing Surges; you just need to rest in order to access them. This means: ambush, strike, retreat, rest. Rinse and repeat.

I think it would be a fun party to play. Imagine the following "Striker/Controller" party:

1 - Elven Ranger.
2 - Elven Ranger.
3 - Elven Rogue.
4 - Eladrin Fighter. (Feat: Warrior of the Wild - take Stealth)
5 - Eladrin Wizard. (Feat: Warrior of the Wild - take Stealth)

That's 3 Strikers, plus 1 Defender and 1 Controller. Because every character has Stealth (the fighter takes no check penalty in scale), they can gain surprise fairly often, and this party has AWESOME alpha strike capability, with 4x Hunter's Quarry plus Sneak Attack, and action points to boot!

The fighter uses a longsword 2-handed for the alpha strike (necessary to maximize Stealth), then switches to sword & board for the rest of the fight.

Once the party scores a few kills and burns all of its encounter powers, it's time to retreat. The elves should have no problem shifting out and running (with a move of 7), while the eladrins rely on Fey Step to disengage.

A fun guerrilla squad.

 

[AtomicPope]

Without a Leader, the party should try to specialize in Hit and Run tactics. Even without a leader, your party will have the same number of Healing Surges; you just need to rest in order to access them. This means: ambush, strike, retreat, rest. Rinse and repeat.

I think it would be a fun party to play.

But that requires smart players. Not gonna happen