You get equipment list. DM gets rest.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its not about telling you what classes you can take. Its about making you actual play your character as you envision it compared to just taking out of the blue class choices. The interaction between DM and player would be determined by them together.

What I want to try and create, and I am not sure how well it will happen, is a system like some video games like Oblivian use. Skills are increased by your direct use of them. To me this would work better than run around killing everything in sight with your fighter until you level and then putting two skill points into diplomacy.

Huh? You learned to be diplomatic while burying your axe in the head of anything that had a head how? when?

Or the player who plays levels 1 to 6 basically on foot every second because its a mixed urban/dungeon setting yet puts points into Riding at every level because they know they want to take some PrC at level 10.

And how do you distinguish between Favored Soul-ish play, Paladin-ish play, Clerical play, etc?

As to when Hurtcules the Barbarian learned diplomacy: as a young servant in the tent where tribal leaders spoke; listening to the lessons of the cleric around the campfire; reciting the epic poetry of your people, especially the one about the craftiest leader in your tribe's history; some other off-screen event. Or perhaps it we something he didn't do, like when some noble who smelled of flowers and painted like a whore he once knew insulted his manhood by calling his kilt a skirt... and he DIDN'T cleave his head in twain, recognizing this as a faux pas.

Jerry Rice took ballet in the off-season to improve flexibility while retaining strength- he didn't pliet while torching the Raiders for 169 yards and a pair of touchdowns.

I've played in a few RPGs in which skills improved with use. Many-not all- also allowed for improvement by off-screen "events".

 

[Mircoles]

It sounds like a DM with serious control issues and he should just go off and play by himself rather than inflict this torture on any players.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

It sounds like a DM with serious control issues and he should just go off and play by himself rather than inflict this torture on any players.

It sounds like a troll.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

And how do you distinguish between Favored Soul-ish play, Paladin-ish play, Clerical play, etc?

As to when Hurtcules the Barbarian learned diplomacy: as a young servant in the tent where tribal leaders spoke; listening to the lessons of the cleric around the campfire; reciting the epic poetry of your people, especially the one about the craftiest leader in your tribe's history; some other off-screen event. Or perhaps it we something he didn't do, like when some noble who smelled of flowers and painted like a whore he once knew insulted his manhood by calling his kilt a skirt... and he DIDN'T cleave his head in twain, recognizing this as a faux pas.

Jerry Rice took ballet in the off-season to improve flexibility while retaining strength- he didn't pliet while torching the Raiders for 169 yards and a pair of touchdowns.




I've played in a few RPGs in which skills improved with use. Many-not all- also allowed for improvement by off-screen "events".

First off you differentiate between the two by talking. Either straight telling the DM or by describing the effect you want and letting the DM make the choice. Really up to the player on what they want.

Sounds like backstory to me. Part of playing a game like this would be each player writing a half page or longer backstory of their character (or less if they dont wnat to) telling of their growing up.

Of course things happen offscreen. You have long sea voyages, time between adventures, boring caravan duty, vacations, and whatever else your characters do between wiping mindflayer brains off their mace.

I like to throw month to year long breaks into my campaigns, generally between adventures, in addition to periods of general quiet. You dont roleplay them out day by day but I like my characters aging at a slightly faster rate than they advance in level. Its during these times where a player describes what their character does in offtime.

Example: Party gets hired to guard a merchant ship. Ship leaves in a week. In just a couple minutes of conversation the players decide how to spend their time during this break.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

So getting opinions on this style of play from people who haven't played this way is a good way to gauge how the people you're going to present this to will react. If this is more of a theoretical exercise, then who has or has not done this is largely irrelevent.

No, this thread is to see how this has worked out for other people and try to determine the best way to approach certain problems.

If and when I put together a complete idea I may add that to the thread or start another thread to gauge player reaction.

Even if I do start a second thread it will pretty much be pointless for anyone who has the "this idea sucks I wanna see the numbers" to comment in that thread.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Wow, Docmoriartty.



I actually have done this with my wife. I have a number of items of feedback to give you.


But I won't.


I don't like how you're behaving in your thread responses here and treating other ENworlders.

It sounds like a troll.

Further, normally I wouldn't intuit someones behavior style, but you're asking "have you ever done this really controlling thing" and then acting incredibly insulting and controlling within this thread. This seems to indicate at least two pieces of data in a pattern.


Might be time for some introspection rather than calling people trolls and trying to dictate the information people provide on public message forums?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Wow, Docmoriartty.



I actually have done this with my wife. I have a number of items of feedback to give you.


But I won't.


I don't like how you're behaving in your thread responses here and treating other ENworlders.




Further, normally I wouldn't intuit someones behavior style, but you're asking "have you ever done this really controlling thing" and then acting incredibly insulting and controlling within this thread. This seems to indicate at least two pieces of data in a pattern.


Might be time for some introspection rather than calling people trolls and trying to dictate the information people provide on public message forums?

You tell me how to respond to this.

It sounds like a DM with serious control issues and he should just go off and play by himself rather than inflict this torture on any players.

It was a trollling comment and nothing more.

My other comments were nothing more than requests to stay on topic. A post where someone says "wow I would hate this game" is about as useful as me going into every topic in this forum and adding a comment "I like ice cream". Neither serves a purpose. I am not asking anyone to play this system, so what value is some random internet stranger saying that this system is the opposite of what they think gaming should be?

Several people have responded with their experiences with using something like this and posts have been made about potential pitfalls. I have replied to all of those.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Whoa, folks, ease up on the guy. Doc wants to discuss the topic that he started a thread about, and dropping in to thread-crap with comments about how you don't like his idea is just not cool. And yes, some of the negative comments are borderline trolling.

(This sort of thing happens to me consistently at RPG.net and Dragonsfoot, so I have considerable sympathy for an OP who just wants to keep his discussion on topic.)

Now, as one of the few people here who has actually *done* this and *liked* it, I will add the following:

It is patently not about "DM control." The whole point of taking the numbers/mechanics out of the game (or rather, out of the players' sight) serves immersion. And calling it a "freeform storygame" is nonsense. The numbers and rules are still there; they're just kept behind the DM screen. When you play a video game, you don't see the CPU crunching the numbers; you just see the graphics and the interface. This style of gameplay has the same effect. It nudges the players' decisions away from metagaming and towards role-playing, which I mean in the sense of "decisions made from the perspective of the character rather than the player." And from my experience, it does work rather well if that's your aim.

Edit: Just a follow-up question, Doc: do you use minis and a battle-grid or not?

 

[prosfilaes]

You tell me how to respond to this.

You don't. Wisdom is knowing when not to respond as much as how to respond.

 

[Saeviomagy]

First up, D&D is not the game for this. D&D classes are straightjackets that limit mechanical character development to a narrow channel and punish diversity. It will become very obvious to your players what numbers are what, to the point where you may as well not bother with obfuscation. The only way you're going to keep everything hidden is if you rewrite the character classes, spells etc etc, which is way more work than is necessary when there are great games out there that can do this for you.

Pick up any one of a million classless games and you'll be golden.

Incidentally, modelling your game off of oblivion is a terrible idea. Just refer to any of the powergaming guides to oblivion for reasons why. Powergaming in oblivion is simple, and it's a matter of doing very repetitive, boring things over and over. Making your roleplaying game reward tedium isn't a good thing.

Don't expect mechanically minded people to stop trying to powergame just because you're denying them information. It won't happen. You will get immersion by making the non-mechanical aspects of your game interesting, engaging and polished, not by trying to ban the mechanical aspects.

Finally: Calling anyone who likes the mechanical aspect of a game a power-gaming munchkin is pretty offensive, and it's likely why you're getting negative responses.

From what you've written, it sounds like you've got some sort of an agenda, and the structure of your posts (starting with explicit instructions limiting who's allowed to respond, and the topic of responses) would seem to suggest that you know that your agenda is likely to find negative responses in the community that you're addressing. That all combines to make you sound defensive before anyone has even talked to you.

So, who's the munchkin in your gaming group that you feel is running rough-shod all over you and spoiling your fun?