D&D General Your Core Classes if The Core 4 Aren't Allowed

[squibbles]

Imagine!

You are asked to make a 3pp DnD 5e competitor. The ask includes some odd restrictions.

1. No Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard.

2. No Plain Human, or Tolkein style elves, dwarves, orcs, or halflings.

3. Replacements cannot be the same thing with a different name, but it can be designed to fill the same role or niche.

What do?

(I will share mine later)

Always a fun thought exercise, even if it does seem suspiciously similar to a previous thread

If the goal was to create a genuine competitor to 5e, I think these sorts of decisions would need to be informed by market research. But I have no interest in that and am going to ignore that part of the premise.

D&D 5e has always underdelivered on low magic and sword and sorcery (not the same thing, but both difficult/absent), so I would try playing into those character types.

Classes:

• Alchemist--an intelligent and/or charismatic class that creates cures, buffing elixirs, poisons, propellants, etc. it would not be explicitly magical, but some subclasses would lean that way, it could encompass a scholar-adventurers, witch hunters, transmuters, and maybe illusionists (1/3 caster)
• Barbarian--not the same one as 5e; themed around brute force fighting and wilderness survival--rage would not be the central feature. Archetypes like beastmaster and hunter could live here along with berserker
• Knave--skill-monkey and agile fighter with lots of tricks, could lean towards swashbuckling, sneakthievery, dabbling in the occult (1/3 caster), or tactical battlemaster/warlord archetypes
• Sorcerer--using this more evocative name, but designed more like a warlock--would start out NOT having signed a pact, and finding a supernatural patron would be a major goal. A lot of it's casting would be built around rituals. Pacts would include lords of chaos, lords of law, and stranger types of things.
• Warrior-Monk--I'm a bit on the fence about what would be included / differ from 5e.

Species, a bit hard to do low magic with no humans, so more sword and sorcery facing:

• Tiefling--the majority group in the dominant civilization ruling the major cities as dens if iniquity
• Serpentman--as above, but in decline
• Lizardman
• Goliath
• Thri-kreen (or green martian)
• Birdperson
• Changeling

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Always a fun thought exercise, even if it does seem suspiciously similar to a previous thread

If the goal was to create a genuine competitor to 5e, I think these sorts of decisions would need to be informed by market research. But I have no interest in that and am going to ignore that part of the premise.

D&D 5e has always underdelivered on low magic and sword and sorcery (not the same thing, but both difficult/absent), so I would try playing into those character types.

Classes:

• Alchemist--an intelligent and/or charismatic class that creates cures, buffing elixirs, poisons, propellants, etc. it would not be explicitly magical, but some subclasses would lean that way, it could encompass a scholar-adventurers, witch hunters, transmuters, and maybe illusionists (1/3 caster)
• Barbarian--not the same one as 5e; themed around brute force fighting and wilderness survival--rage would not be the central feature. Archetypes like beastmaster and hunter could live here along with berserker
• Knave--skill-monkey and agile fighter with lots of tricks, could lean towards swashbuckling, sneakthievery, dabbling in the occult (1/3 caster), or tactical battlemaster/warlord archetypes
• Sorcerer--using this more evocative name, but designed more like a warlock--would start out NOT having signed a pact, and finding a supernatural patron would be a major goal. A lot of it's casting would be built around rituals. Pacts would include lords of chaos, lords of law, and stranger types of things.
• Warrior-Monk--I'm a bit on the fence about what would be included / differ from 5e.

Species, a bit hard to do low magic with no humans, so more sword and sorcery facing:

• Tiefling--the majority group in the dominant civilization ruling the major cities as dens if iniquity
• Serpentman--as above, but in decline
• Lizardman
• Goliath
• Thri-kreen (or green martian)
• Birdperson
• Changeling

I like the idea of only one magic user, though having the pact be something you have to go find in the world seems hard to work i to a dnd class structure.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Sadly, my original update(s) got eaten and I'm not sure there's actually a market for it now but...

They did this 20 years ago and called it Everstone: Bloodstone Legacy. BESM20-based, although their implementation was a bit rough around the edges.

Moon Magi: Focused on travel and transformation magic
Shadow Magi: Focused on illusionary magic.
Sun Magi: Weapons and offensive magic. Kinda jedi, without all the moralising
Templar: the moralising warrior (paladin)

Races:
War Golem: DIY warforged (I'd argue that they should be allowed to pick a class instead of being locked into just the War Golem; that's shades of "Elf is your race/class" from the old B/X days)
Ka'taan (sigh, yeah, really.) Anthropomorphic Lion people
O'Grom: half-ogres that can summon small elementals
Jawas. No, seriously. I really mean it; this is a post-apocalypse fantasy world and you're gonna want a species that's known for trading and being (mostly) neutral. Loyal to the coin.

If not them, then Thralls (from Talislanta). A species of cloned warriors that distinguish themselves by tattoos. They were doin' the Clone Wars way before Lucas starting thinking about something like that.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sadly, my original update(s) got eaten and I'm not sure there's actually a market for it now but...

They did this 20 years ago and called it Everstone: Bloodstone Legacy. BESM20-based, although their implementation was a bit rough around the edges.

Moon Magi: Focused on travel and transformation magic
Shadow Magi: Focused on illusionary magic.
Sun Magi: Weapons and offensive magic. Kinda jedi, without all the moralising
Templar: the moralising warrior (paladin)

Races:
War Golem: DIY warforged (I'd argue that they should be allowed to pick a class instead of being locked into just the War Golem; that's shades of "Elf is your race/class" from the old B/X days)
Ka'taan (sigh, yeah, really.) Anthropomorphic Lion people
O'Grom: half-ogres that can summon small elementals
Jawas. No, seriously. I really mean it; this is a post-apocalypse fantasy world and you're gonna want a species that's known for trading and being (mostly) neutral. Loyal to the coin.

If not them, then Thralls (from Talislanta). A species of cloned warriors that distinguish themselves by tattoos. They were doin' the Clone Wars way before Lucas starting thinking about something like that.

Nice. Another good example of choices that illustrate and reinforce the themes of the setting.

 

[Scribe]

Always a fun thought exercise, even if it does seem suspiciously similar to a previous thread

If the goal was to create a genuine competitor to 5e, I think these sorts of decisions would need to be informed by market research. But I have no interest in that and am going to ignore that part of the premise.

D&D 5e has always underdelivered on low magic and sword and sorcery (not the same thing, but both difficult/absent), so I would try playing into those character types.

Classes:

• Alchemist--an intelligent and/or charismatic class that creates cures, buffing elixirs, poisons, propellants, etc. it would not be explicitly magical, but some subclasses would lean that way, it could encompass a scholar-adventurers, witch hunters, transmuters, and maybe illusionists (1/3 caster)
• Barbarian--not the same one as 5e; themed around brute force fighting and wilderness survival--rage would not be the central feature. Archetypes like beastmaster and hunter could live here along with berserker
• Knave--skill-monkey and agile fighter with lots of tricks, could lean towards swashbuckling, sneakthievery, dabbling in the occult (1/3 caster), or tactical battlemaster/warlord archetypes
• Sorcerer--using this more evocative name, but designed more like a warlock--would start out NOT having signed a pact, and finding a supernatural patron would be a major goal. A lot of it's casting would be built around rituals. Pacts would include lords of chaos, lords of law, and stranger types of things.
• Warrior-Monk--I'm a bit on the fence about what would be included / differ from 5e.

Species, a bit hard to do low magic with no humans, so more sword and sorcery facing:

• Tiefling--the majority group in the dominant civilization ruling the major cities as dens if iniquity
• Serpentman--as above, but in decline
• Lizardman
• Goliath
• Thri-kreen (or green martian)
• Birdperson
• Changeling

I would subscribe to this newsletter.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay lots of folks interpreted it as being restricted to 4 and 4, so i will try that. And for the classes i will only use existing 5e classes.

Species

• Shadar-Kai
• Gnomes
• Goliaths
• Shifters

Classes

• Artificer
• Ranger
• Bard
• Paladin

 

[DammitVictor]

I prefer settings without Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard. And settings without Elf/Dwarf/Halfling/Orc are something I like to toy around with.

Doing this in 5e is hard for me. There just aren't enough 1PP classes and I'm not familiar enough with 3PP to really make it work. Using 3.PF classes, though...

When in danger or in doubt... D&D isn't D&D without Gith and Kreen. Goblinoids are a good replacement for the Tolkien Trio. Throw in Warforged.

Githyanki lean toward Cavalier and Warlock, Antipaladin, and any draconic class as a Red. Githzerai are obvs Monk, Magus, and either Wu Jen or (elemental or chaos) Sorcerer, for which I'd allow them to cast with WIS if they have Monk levels.

All goblinoids go for Ninja and Gunslinger. Goblins add Alchemist and Cryptic, hobgoblins add Cavalier and Monk, bugbears add Barbarian and Dread.

Warforged are Cavalier, Brawler, Magus, Warmage. If we want psionic Warforged, Soulknife, Aegis, and Tactician.

Thri-Kreen are Rangers, Druids, or Brawlers. Xixchil are Assassin or Witch, or possibly Magus with a natural weapon archetype. Psionically? (Not by default.) Psionically, Kreen are looking at Feral Heart Soulknife and Psychic Warrior; Xixchil are looking at Aberrant Aegis or Cryptic.

 

[jian]

I actually really like doing this and I think you can do just fine off 5E, so:

• Main four non-human races: Dragonborn, gnomes, half-orcs (or maybe just orcs), tieflings.
• Main four non-core classes: Bards, druids, rangers, warlocks.

Even just doing that changes the gaming and worldbuilding assumptions. Are the Dragonborn and tieflings at war? Everyone can use magic, and the flavour is maybe a little more Celtic or fae? There are no gods who grant magic (doesn’t mean people don’t worship them, of course).

 

[rmcoen]

Maybe I missed it, but isn't the right solution "skill-based, not class-based"?

Or, shoehorning that into a "5e-like" structure, take the setup of the warlock and run wild with it.

Like Dragon Age, you really only have three archetypes: Martial, Caster, Skill

"Caster" would all be a "pick your invocations and powers" setup, with appropriate names. For example, perhaps "Invoker" = warlock devoted to god-patrons, while "Diabolist" would get their powers from lower planes. Regardless, your Patron would determine at least half your available "menu" of choices. If you are in Invoker of Sune, expect moon-based magic and enchantment; an Invoker of Pelor is going to have a very different set of powers to choose from. But the key is "choose from"... every Invoker of Pelor would have similar powers, but other than a few common base powers, should be different.

Martial would follow the same style - which honestly just harkens back to 3e's Feat Trees (of PF1e's Ultimate Martial book). You get lots of choices, and each benchmark, new more powerful choices... but you could still select lower/earlier choices. So you could be a defensive armor specialist, or a peerless archer, or a jack-of-all-weapons with basic techniques in many, but no earthbreaking smites or flying shield of invulnerability.

Skill - need a name, sorry, coming up short... Paragon resonates right now - would instead imitate PF2e's skill feats. training levels, and degrees of success. Anyone can have the "sleight of hand" skill, for example, and maybe perform card tricks, but only the Paragon can steal the money out of the wallet inside the hidden belt-pouch under your clothes... and leave a grenade in its place! Anyone can parkour (i.e. Acrobatics) with effort and training, but only the Paragon can parkour up the smoke from your campfire. Or maybe, like the Martial, maybe your Paragon chooses to have "initiate" level training in a dozen skills, instead of "master" training in just one.

As for races -- that's so setting-specific, as everyone has already said and given examples of. Maybe, take a page from Thundercats -- yeah, it's Earth, but the only Human here is Mum-Ra! Everyone else is a mutant, alien, or mechanical/cybernetic lifeform. And let's be realistic - "mutant" covers anything you can imagine, from furries (mutant-fur) to dragonborn (mutant-scales), from goliaths (mutant-big) to halflings (mutant-small), from elves (mutant-lithe&magic) to dwarves (mutant-hardy&antimagic), and everything in-between.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe I missed it, but isn't the right solution "skill-based, not class-based"?

Or, shoehorning that into a "5e-like" structure, take the setup of the warlock and run wild with it.

Like Dragon Age, you really only have three archetypes: Martial, Caster, Skill

"Caster" would all be a "pick your invocations and powers" setup, with appropriate names. For example, perhaps "Invoker" = warlock devoted to god-patrons, while "Diabolist" would get their powers from lower planes. Regardless, your Patron would determine at least half your available "menu" of choices. If you are in Invoker of Sune, expect moon-based magic and enchantment; an Invoker of Pelor is going to have a very different set of powers to choose from. But the key is "choose from"... every Invoker of Pelor would have similar powers, but other than a few common base powers, should be different.

Martial would follow the same style - which honestly just harkens back to 3e's Feat Trees (of PF1e's Ultimate Martial book). You get lots of choices, and each benchmark, new more powerful choices... but you could still select lower/earlier choices. So you could be a defensive armor specialist, or a peerless archer, or a jack-of-all-weapons with basic techniques in many, but no earthbreaking smites or flying shield of invulnerability.

Skill - need a name, sorry, coming up short... Paragon resonates right now - would instead imitate PF2e's skill feats. training levels, and degrees of success. Anyone can have the "sleight of hand" skill, for example, and maybe perform card tricks, but only the Paragon can steal the money out of the wallet inside the hidden belt-pouch under your clothes... and leave a grenade in its place! Anyone can parkour (i.e. Acrobatics) with effort and training, but only the Paragon can parkour up the smoke from your campfire. Or maybe, like the Martial, maybe your Paragon chooses to have "initiate" level training in a dozen skills, instead of "master" training in just one.

As for races -- that's so setting-specific, as everyone has already said and given examples of. Maybe, take a page from Thundercats -- yeah, it's Earth, but the only Human here is Mum-Ra! Everyone else is a mutant, alien, or mechanical/cybernetic lifeform. And let's be realistic - "mutant" covers anything you can imagine, from furries (mutant-fur) to dragonborn (mutant-scales), from goliaths (mutant-big) to halflings (mutant-small), from elves (mutant-lithe&magic) to dwarves (mutant-hardy&antimagic), and everything in-between.

I mean sure that can be the answer, or to put it another way it is certainly an answer.

But not everyone wants that complexity, not rveryone likes non class based character creation, and many of us dislike how locked in DA classes are.

Sidenote: I think one of ghe biggest things i dislike abput dnd dwarves is the whole no magic thing that somehow still lingers in the culture of the game. Dwarves should be very magical. DnD just sucks at associating types of magic with things like elements and parts of the cosmology and the like in a way that adds fun.

Dwarves should be Earth Magic while Elves are Air magic, and those two elements should be associated with opposing things like logic and passion, and more subtly interacting things like knowledge and craft. Endurance and flexibility.

And those associations should be part of the foundation on which magic is built for the game.