Your experience in these classic/iconic encounters

[Freakohollik]

... or 3) They were playing Return to the TOH as part of a long-running campaign, explored the tomb very slowly and carefully, and did thorough research on the protagonist (including spells such as contact other place and legend lore) before taking on the demi-lich.

That's what happened with my players. They didn't need to read the module beforehand to know that the ToH has a "reputation". After having a rough time with the necromancer settlement outside the ToH, they knew that they had to approach the actual tomb in the most cautious way possible - which involved literally weeks of prep and spell-casting.

Going by the original module's text, divining shouldn't work. The first sentence in the original module is

The legend of the tomb is an old story with many parts, some of which may be lost or obscured. Characters attempting to glean special information by consulting sages or through legend lore spells may still have difficulty obtaining as much background as they desire, for the scraps of information are often minimal and mystical.

The same text should mostly apply to the return to module. The exceptions would be the original party's log and the one armed guy that joins you. I can't remember how much the log warns you about, but I remember that the party in the log ran away from the skull after getting their souls eaten. Never manged to hurt the skull.

 

[Celebrim]

The same text should mostly apply to the return to module. The exceptions would be the original party's log and the one armed guy that joins you. I can't remember how much the log warns you about, but I remember that the party in the log ran away from the skull after getting their souls eaten. Never manged to hurt the skull.

To say nothing of the fact that by RttToH an entire order of necromancer's has built a college on site devoted to nothing but the study of it. It seems improbable that the PC's would be able to think or perform any divinations and learn anything not already performed by those NPC's, no matter how many weeks they spent in preparation.

I'm also suspicious of the fact that the PC's successfully performed divinations about the tomb, but not about the City of Moil. Why stop at the tomb in your planning? The cynic's answer is that the player's knew alot more about the tomb (published decades previously) and demi-liches (available in all sorts of sources) than they knew about the then just published city that sleeps, and so were better able to come up with in game answers to things that they already suspected (or knew) than they were to things that they knew nothing of as players.

For my part, I don't think I would provide players with any answers as a result of intensive divination that they couldn't learn by examining the tomb itself. So, they might eventually peice together the clue rhyme as a result of their efforts, but I can't imagine how they'd learn what spells were useful against Acerak's skull that way. And even if they might, I don't think I'd provide answers that were less cryptic than the clue rhyme.

At this point in time, it is my opinion the only way to run the ToH and capture the experience of playing it in the late 70's or early 80's (at least for experienced gamers) is to rewrite it. Someone on EnWorld once told a story about how they boldly went up to the tomb, and started digging for the entrances, and then found 4 rather than 3 doorways. At which point, one of them made the astute observation, "We are all going to die."

That's the proper way to run the module.

 

[kaomera]

Steading of the Hill Giant Chief – The grand party with a couple dozen giants. Did you attack? How’d it go?

I DM'ed: party snuck up with a small army of mercenaries in tow (Illusionist FTW), and set the Steading on fire. The Giants and Ogres (I remember there being a number of Ogres) and the mercenaries slaughtered each other while the PCs oh-so-cleverly tried to ambush the Chief & company when they exited their escape tunnel (I have no idea if this exit was included in the original adventure), things went bad, and they ended up running for their lives. The PCs (except for the paranoid Druid) subsequently claimed a huge victory in order to scam a reward, and while partying away their ill-gotten gold where assassinated one by one by agents of the Slavers.

Shrine of the Kuo-Toa – The statue of Blip’poop. Did you touch it and say her name? How’d it go?

I Dm'ed a variant of this module (I used it as a stand-alone and placed it much nearer the surface), the PCs systematically slaughtered the Kuo-Toa (IIRC they where playing factions off of one another via another damned Illusionist), then finally decided to go after Blip'poop just to squeeze the last few XP from the place. I don't remember what's supposed to happen, but I had the PC who spoke the name transported to Her watery domain (I think ol' Blip' is instead supposed to appear at the Shrine)... Three PCs ended up making a (very) one-way trip. None of them had any means of breathing water.

Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords – The slave lords waiting at the end of the module. Did you fight them? How’d it go?

IIRC you don't actually get to fight them at the end of A3, but my players kinda skipped most of the presumed course of events for this module, anyway. With Suderham in flames, a set of fake Slave Lords showed up to challenge the PCs. The PCs didn't fall for it, spotted the real Slave Lords lurking nearby, sent their own set of duplicates (polymorphed and silenced captives) to distract them, dropped a building on them, and then attacked. The PCs where winning until the Slave Lord Monk showed up and pretty much single-handedly kicked their butts, and then chased them down one by one when the scattered and fled...

Tomb of Horrors – Acererak’s skull awakes. Did you fight it? How’d it go?

As a player: We where so freaked out by the legends surrounding the Tomb that we basically refused to go in. We always claimed that as a "win".

Later I was convinced to try to solo the module, with an "anything goes" character I would devise specifically for the task (this was also after I had read the module myself). IIRC I was running a 19/18 switch-class Paladin / M-U with a pretty disgusting trio of magic items (three artifacts would not have been more powerful / useful, IMO). I was completely unscathed until I got to the Juggernaut, where I screwed up a bit, and while I was resting on the Ethereal plane Acererak got sick of my BS and showed up to deal with me. I Time Stopped, he went invisible, wished his way inside my Time-Bubble, and Summon Monster'ed some kind of demonic elephant thing which stomped me flat.

I don't think we ever managed to play any module but B2 "straight".

 

[Lancelot]

Going by the original module's text, divining shouldn't work.

The module claims "difficulty", and that such information is "often" fragmentary. It cites legend lore as an example, which is fair enough. That spell should give fragments, anyway. But it certainly doesn't say that divination won't work at all.

In my players' case, they went above and beyond. They had read the story fragment in RttToH and realized they were dealing with something very scary. They were pretty banged up in the Necro College, and knew that even the necro's feared the tomb. Hence, they started with low order spells like divination. I'm not sure if they cast legend lore, but I gave them a fragment of a rhyme which alluded to some of the perils within in vague terms. Then they used contact outer plane, made their insanity check, and tried to nail down a few more specifics.

Even after all that, all they knew (in vague terms) was that there was a terrible opponent against whom all their power was for naught, and who had never been defeated. So they used a wish to learn of ways in which they could defeat him. And even then, they only got some doggerel fragment ("...hard as bone and as inevitable as death... only blades of superlative sharpness in the hands of the most pure will avail, or the treasures of his own keeping in the hands of the depraved... etc, etc").

Side-note: Yeah, they had a ring of two wishes, courtesy of the remorhaz in G2. But that's far from the only wish-item available in 1e modules.

I guess that's the thing that disappoints me so much about Tomb of Horrors in general. Everybody expects the same outcome. The PCs survive = the DM failed. The PCs destroy the demi-lich = the players cheated. The only "acceptable" answer is the PCs fail in the mission, either TPKing in the tomb or running for their lives. That's just the mark of a poor module, in my books. I don't mind brutally hard, but I chafe at hearing the proper way to run a module is to ensure the party is screwed over.

I reckon the proper way to run Tomb of Horrors is to scare the heck out of the players, give them a slender chance of success, and let the dice fall where they may. If I'd thrown out all of their carefully-thought prep (and the wish) just to preserve the module's rep as "unbeatable", they never would have progressed to the more interesting parts of RttToH... they would have learned the lesson that intelligence is worthless compared to the railroad... and they would have missed the experience of getting even more brutally scarred and tormented by Moil and the Fortress of Conclusion.

It still boggles my mind that they got through the Tomb of Horrors, though... but they failed to puzzle out the mystery in L2 - The Assassin's Knot. And they TPK'ed three times in Red Hand of Doom. And they TPK'ed in X1 - Isle of Dread. And they...

 

[radferth]

I've DMed 3 of these.

1) Did the Steading in C&C with pregens based on the ones in the module. The players withdrew from the main hall after inflicting heavy losses on the giants, including killing the chief.

2) Did the slave lords in a campaign I run solo for my brother. His group barely won this fight, primarily because they hit the enemy magic-user with everything they had on the first round, and he never got his fireball off. The fighter almost outlasted them. Then I had the sleep gas go off so they could do A4 anyway.

3) Did Tomb of Horror using 3e, also with my brother. He didn't know so much about the module, but did know what a demi-lich could do. I had the dust function as an invulnerable 3e ghost. Most of the party failed a fear save and fled the room, he took a few rounds of charisma drain from the ghost while he scooped up some treasure (the big gems and a few magic items). We assumed that the party knew not to touch the skull, which was kind of a lame compromise, but the other choice was for me to completely rewrite the monster, in which case they just all would have fled anyway, 'cause my brother is justifiably scared of my custom monsters.

 

[Scylla]

Tomb of Horrors:

Jabberwock's Rest: Running the Tomb, Part 8: Death to Acererak!

 

[Freakohollik]

The module claims "difficulty", and that such information is "often" fragmentary. It cites legend lore as an example, which is fair enough. That spell should give fragments, anyway. But it certainly doesn't say that divination won't work at all.

In my players' case, they went above and beyond. They had read the story fragment in RttToH and realized they were dealing with something very scary. They were pretty banged up in the Necro College, and knew that even the necro's feared the tomb. Hence, they started with low order spells like divination. I'm not sure if they cast legend lore, but I gave them a fragment of a rhyme which alluded to some of the perils within in vague terms. Then they used contact outer plane, made their insanity check, and tried to nail down a few more specifics.

Even after all that, all they knew (in vague terms) was that there was a terrible opponent against whom all their power was for naught, and who had never been defeated. So they used a wish to learn of ways in which they could defeat him. And even then, they only got some doggerel fragment ("...hard as bone and as inevitable as death... only blades of superlative sharpness in the hands of the most pure will avail, or the treasures of his own keeping in the hands of the depraved... etc, etc").

Side-note: Yeah, they had a ring of two wishes, courtesy of the remorhaz in G2. But that's far from the only wish-item available in 1e modules.

Thats more like it. Using wishes seems within reason to get the scraps you've mentioned.

I guess that's the thing that disappoints me so much about Tomb of Horrors in general. Everybody expects the same outcome. The PCs survive = the DM failed. The PCs destroy the demi-lich = the players cheated. The only "acceptable" answer is the PCs fail in the mission, either TPKing in the tomb or running for their lives. That's just the mark of a poor module, in my books. I don't mind brutally hard, but I chafe at hearing the proper way to run a module is to ensure the party is screwed over.

No. The "correct" outcome of the fight at the end is to take the treasure and leave the demilich alone. Most 1E modules assume you're there for the treasure not to destroy some final boss who will otherwise destroy the universe.

I reckon the proper way to run Tomb of Horrors is to scare the heck out of the players, give them a slender chance of success, and let the dice fall where they may. If I'd thrown out all of their carefully-thought prep (and the wish) just to preserve the module's rep as "unbeatable", they never would have progressed to the more interesting parts of RttToH... they would have learned the lesson that intelligence is worthless compared to the railroad... and they would have missed the experience of getting even more brutally scarred and tormented by Moil and the Fortress of Conclusion.

Well this struck me as wrong because the Tomb is a decision making dungeon. The module describes it as a thinking-man's dungeon. If you let the players use some magic and divine the correct decision, it defeats the purpose of the dungeon.

I'll admit that the module is too hard to run by the book, but ingenuity in rooms, traps, and puzzles make it my favorite adventure ever.

 

[Hussar]

No. The "correct" outcome of the fight at the end is to take the treasure and leave the demilich alone. Most 1E modules assume you're there for the treasure not to destroy some final boss who will otherwise destroy the universe.

Really? Which ones?

G1-3 assume you are there at the behest of the Duchy of Geoff to stop the Giants. ToEE assumes you are there to stop the Temple. Ravenloft assumes you are there to kill Straud. Q1 assumes you are there to kill Lolth.

There are a few open ended ones. Caves of Chaos, Isle of Dread, The Lost City come to mind. But, I'm not sure I'd say that most modules don't have a big boss at the end that you're supposed to whack.

 

[Freakohollik]

Really? Which ones?

G1-3 assume you are there at the behest of the Duchy of Geoff to stop the Giants. ToEE assumes you are there to stop the Temple. Ravenloft assumes you are there to kill Straud. Q1 assumes you are there to kill Lolth.

There are a few open ended ones. Caves of Chaos, Isle of Dread, The Lost City come to mind. But, I'm not sure I'd say that most modules don't have a big boss at the end that you're supposed to whack.

The modules typically do have some big boss to kill because he holds the largest treasure. The modules are usually vague about the reasons a party would go to a dungeon. The implicit reasoning is treasure, remember 1gp = 1xp and you'll get more xp from that than from kills. Of course they're vague enough, that if you want to play up some good vs. evil the option is there. I'll give you GDQ and I6. I haven't read Temple so no comment, though if I am not mistaken, you are given no particular reason to go to the moathouse other than treasure. The other 3 you list are total treasure grabs. You're there to explore. Why explore? Treasure. In none of those modules are you explicitly there to off some bad guy.

Anyway, some other treasure grabs off the top of my head.
B1 In Search of the Unknown
B3 Palace of the Silver Princess
C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness
S1 Tomb of Horrors
S2 White Plume Mountain
S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure

 

[Hussar]

I don't deny that some modules were like this. I do think that there's probably just as many big boss style modules as there are open style ones though. I was just disagreeing with your generalization, not with your characterization.