Your experiences: Are high level 'named' monsters too easy?

[Starfox]

In my experiences, the game starts to feel like it's on easy mode somewhere around 14th level.

Strategic thinkers will gladly make some sacrifices at level 1 to become stronger at higher levels. If the game is set to accommodate them at level 1 and then uses a "normal" power progression as the default as levels increase, it will fail to accommodate them at higher level.

This has very much to do with build optimization. Basically, it is the same thing that happens in MMOs. As you advance in level, you gain more character choices. Make bad choices, and you slip behind the power curve. Make good, synergistic choices and you slide ahead of the power curve. As some players make good choices throughout their career this gradual change accumulates, with each choice they'll widen the gap. At some level, the gap becomes so great that things are no longer challenging.

Add in the fact that some builds take time to bloom. If character options A, B and C together make a great combo, but having only A and B is suboptimal, a character going this path will seem weaker until he gets C as well and the combo blooms. 4E is full of such combos. I guess in your game they bloom at about level 14. In my game it happened at around level 12, and again at level 22, when characters could exploit the new options at each tier.

The effect of tactical savvy is harder to calculate, but even there, it usually takes certain character abilities to use tactics to the full extent. As players customize their characters to fit the tactics they have mastered, there will be more and more synergies between tactics and character abilities, further escalating things. Players also learn to mesh their characters to the team - a party that has played together since level 1 will be stronger than one that just happens to form at a game-store event, even if the characters individually are just as optimized.

 

[babinro]

Tiamat not only challenge my party, but killed all by the Fey Warlock who fled. I guess it takes 6 breath attacks to truly challenge my party.

In all truth though, this boss was challenging because of its extreme defenses. Half the party members needed a natural 17 to hit it...15 with combat advantage. Most of their key spells missed, where they would hit other 'named' bosses. In the future, I would definitely modify its defenses to make for a more interesting fight. 48 before conditional modifiers seems like it should be the highest non-AC defense a monster should have for the fight to remain fun.

My druid player and cleric player were hit by %100 of breath attacks as a natural 2 was sufficient to get their reflexes. Tiamat almost never missed though, pretty much guaranteeing a hit on a natural 7 against players best defenses with few exceptions.

Fun times all the same, and an appropriate way to end the campaign.

 

[Argyle King]

Is that really the case, though?

I noticed a much higher damage expression for the Dark Sun monsters that were previewed, but what about the others? I also noticed that e.g. the Dark Sun soldier had a lower attack, probably to compensate for the higher damage.

Where else did you notice significantly higher damage expressions?

Some of the MM3 previews seemed to have higher damage expressions which were a little higher.

 

[Argyle King]

Strategic thinkers will gladly make some sacrifices at level 1 to become stronger at higher levels. If the game is set to accommodate them at level 1 and then uses a "normal" power progression as the default as levels increase, it will fail to accommodate them at higher level.

This has very much to do with build optimization. Basically, it is the same thing that happens in MMOs. As you advance in level, you gain more character choices. Make bad choices, and you slip behind the power curve. Make good, synergistic choices and you slide ahead of the power curve. As some players make good choices throughout their career this gradual change accumulates, with each choice they'll widen the gap. At some level, the gap becomes so great that things are no longer challenging.

Add in the fact that some builds take time to bloom. If character options A, B and C together make a great combo, but having only A and B is suboptimal, a character going this path will seem weaker until he gets C as well and the combo blooms. 4E is full of such combos. I guess in your game they bloom at about level 14. In my game it happened at around level 12, and again at level 22, when characters could exploit the new options at each tier.

The effect of tactical savvy is harder to calculate, but even there, it usually takes certain character abilities to use tactics to the full extent. As players customize their characters to fit the tactics they have mastered, there will be more and more synergies between tactics and character abilities, further escalating things. Players also learn to mesh their characters to the team - a party that has played together since level 1 will be stronger than one that just happens to form at a game-store event, even if the characters individually are just as optimized.

I agree that some builds (and even some classes) take a while to bloom into their full potential. However, the reason I start to feel as though the game becomes easier at the level I mentioned is because that seems to be around the time when being hit by a monster really doesn't seem to matter as much as it did prior to that. There are specific monsters which are exceptions, but, overall, I've noticed that a lot of monsters attacks aren't taken very seriously by some of the players I game with. The PCs can sometimes deal more damage with at-will attacks than a monster can deal.

For me, I'd barely consider myself good at char op. I recognize when there is good syngergy between powers, but very rarely do I build my character with higher levels in mind. I may keep in mind a general idea of a paragon path I want to qualify for or something like that, but I generally build my characters one level at a time. Also, as I said in my previous post, to attempt to challenge myself, I've actually built characters who went against the conventional* char op wisdom, and it still seemed as though I squashed the monsters in most encounters.

I would say I have a somewhat tactical mind, so maybe that makes the difference. The creatures of 4E still seem to be at the low end of the power curve of the system though.


* I will say that Eternal Seeker turns out much better than most people seem to think it does though. While the ED doesn't have features which are as good as something like Demi God, the freedom to cherry pick powers from any class leads to some rather nasty power combos.

 

[Starfox]

I've noticed that a lot of monsters attacks aren't taken very seriously by some of the players I game with. The PCs can sometimes deal more damage with at-will attacks than a monster can deal.

Hit points for monsters and characters are not the same thing. At higher levels especially, monsters have gobs of hit points and do little damage, while players ave much less hit points and have great damage. Expressed as a percentage of the target's hit points, both sides do about the same damage but the players have better defenses and better healing. Its like the game tries to feed the player's ego by inflating their damage figures without actually letting them do more damage.

I generally agree with you that things get easier at higher levels tough. The build optimization I'm speaking of probably exaggerates this (I have only played with one group, and they optimize, so I have nothing to compare to), but my feeling is also that even a mediocre party would have an easier time at higher levels.

 

[Runestar]

I suspect it is more that higher lv monsters are ill-equipped to deal with the increased repertoire of options players have at their disposal. Making a monster epic clearly goes beyond simply inflating its stats, you probably need to give it ways of working around popular player tactics such as chain-stunning.

 

[jbear]

I was reading this thread where 6 26th lvl PCs apparently are wiping the floor with Orcus, 20 lvl 23 minion ghouls and 5 greater flameskulls plus an Atropal.....

The conclusion among the posters is, that many of the 'named' monsters are just too easy. Orcus, Graaz't, Dispater. They just go down. Exceptions seem to be Tiamat and others that have multiple turns in a round.

What are your experiences? My campaign is woefully lowlevel, but I'm planning my story arc. Is the PCs should face Ashardalon 5 levels before the planned 27, or Orcus can just stand up to a 25th level party, I would like to know now and plan accordingly.

Thank you for your input.

Sorry, just to clear this up. All of those monsters listed were thrashed in one encounter? Seriously? Were the flame skulls flying way up beyond reach and blinding ranged attackers? It's sounds like a very challenging encounter. Deadly even.

I'm surprised it was a wipe, and not even challenging at least. Shikes!

My players are just about to hit 6th so we're still far away, far far away from epic, let alone paragon... snif snif.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Sorry, just to clear this up. All of those monsters listed were thrashed in one encounter? Seriously? Were the flame skulls flying way up beyond reach and blinding ranged attackers? It's sounds like a very challenging encounter. Deadly even.

I'm surprised it was a wipe, and not even challenging at least. Shikes!

Yes one encounter, the referenced post gives a fairly good breakdown of the encounter (well I would say that because I wrote it!).

No the flameskulls didn't hover at maximum range, but they did hang back. They could have done as you say but the group were focusing on orcus so they were safe enough. In fact i would have preferred that the group attacked the skulls to give Orcus a break from the pounding he took.

My players are just about to hit 6th so we're still far away, far far away from epic, let alone paragon... snif snif.

Wait for the shock when your players hit paragon and get a big bump in power. If you are not ready for it it can really mess up your expectations of a balanced encounter.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Mesh Hong, in your experience, what official monsters do provide an appropiate challenge for their level?

 

[Mesh Hong]

Mesh Hong, in your experience, what official monsters do provide an appropiate challenge for their level?

Well I have recently run my level 26 group against Dispater (here), as written his stats were quite interesting but not threatening enough for my tastes so I made a few changes to him. These changes were basically to give him:
- more actions (acts twice a round)
- an anti status effect reaction that was useful but fair
- Iron Spike attacks keeping to the theme of the infernal warlock power “Iron Spike of Dis”.

In the end even my changes and support from other creatures weren’t enough to actually kill any of the PCs in my group. But they did buy him enough respect to be able to bargain his way out of execution.

I am also looking at Dagon at the moment as my group are currently rescuing Avandra from a deep sea Dagon temple. Dagon is designed in a very interesting way but even with his minor attack options I don’t think his damage output is up to the job. (I cannot say what I intend to do as my players read this forum, but I will post the entire adventure when the players have finished it)

At the other end of the scale I have looked at Tiamat more than once and it seems very very dangerous, I don’t think even my group would stand a chance until they were level 30. This is probably a good thing design wise as Tiamat is a level 35 soldier that acts 5 times a round and has 5 action points. At the end of the day Tiamat is the only stat’ed creature that feels like a God in as much as you look at its capabilities and get a sense of TPK. (Personally Tiamats stats are a problem for me as she has stolen a piece of an artefact that the group need and they will have to get it back from her! – probably before they are level 30)