Your houserules when it comes to illusion spells?

Turanil

First Post
As DM how you make illusion spells work? Especially when damage and death are concerned. What are your houserules concerning illusions?

Also, any link to previous Illusion Spells threads in this forum (or the rules forum) would be appreciated. I tried to scan 30 pages in this forum but didn't find anything about the subject.
 

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I have long considered having a fourth save: perception, which is tied to Wisdom. IMC Will saves are tied to Charisma, but I have labored over the idea of having illusion spells grant Perception saves instead.
 


airwalkrr said:
I have long considered having a fourth save: perception, which is tied to Wisdom. IMC Will saves are tied to Charisma, but I have labored over the idea of having illusion spells grant Perception saves instead.
Interestingly enough I have given this some thought as well... The way I would handle it would be to add two new ability scores... split dexterity into agility (dealing with movement, balance, riding) and dexterity (dealing with coordination, two weapon fighting)... then split charisma into charisma (presence) and comeliness (prettiness, flirtation)... I would then make saves an average of two ability modifiers...

Strength of Body - External and Internal ( Str + Con )/2 = Fort
Speed of Body - Coordination and Movement ( Dex + Agi )/2 = Ref
Speed of Mind - Assimilation of Data and Recall ( Int + Wis )/2 = Clarity
Strength of Mind - Presence and Perception ( Cha + Com )/2 = Will

Allow Clarity to take the place of concentration, a skill which really should be a save?. Anyway, I never had a chance to test this out to see if it would be worthwhile... but it's an idea.

On to Illusion spells... they tend to be pretty weak but they are fun to use on NPC's or for personal amusement ;) As for assessing their effectiveness... it depends on how into it the player is. If they describe every little detail then I'm more likely to have the damage be real or full damage... if damage dealt is greater than the hitpoints of the creature then I suppose you could say they were scared to death (too much adrenaline and a weak heart)... I'm not a big fan of any save or die type spells, the phantasmal killer included, so I would probably allow it do deal damage based on the form it took. All of this is provided the victim fails his saving throw... keep in mind there are things to boost save DC's and if the player is extremely descriptive then I would add a circumstance bonus to the DC.

Thank you for your time,
Wm. Holder
 
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Thankfully I've never had a player as an illusionist because these problems do always come up. Here are my thoughts on the matter though.

Firstly: The character needs to have seen something in order to create a convincing facsimile. I think that this provides a lot of balance and can be quite realistic. As an artist I find drawing something from my imagination is a lot harder than drawing something with the appropriate references. I can't even imagine the mindpower it would take to render a 3d image in real time of even something you know very well, let alone something you're imagining just then.

Secondly: The enemy needs to be aware of a special attack to be affected. An illusionary medusa using their stone gaze wouldn't affect a goblin who had never heard of medusae turning people into stone, regardless of how familiar the caster was with petrification.

Thirdly: Any illusionary creatures attack with the wizards BAB since their attacks are based on the wizards knowledge of fighting. While the wizard could "fake it" and have the attacks hit automatically, the discrepencies that would crop up would provide a bonus to the subjects will save equal to the bonus the wizard grants to their illusionary monster's attacks.

Fourthly: Any damage caused by an illusion is subdual unless the illusion itself is quasi-real using shadow magic or some such thing.

Fifthly: Any insta-death illusion (the roof collapsing, etc) grant the target a will-save to immediately disbelief. If failed they take subdual stress damage equal to 1d6/caster level, fortitude save for half damage.

These rules aren't official in any way, just the house-rules I'd probably use.
 

sirwmholder said:
Interestingly enough I have given this some thought as well... The way I would handle it would be to add two new ability scores... split dexterity into agility (dealing with movement, balance, riding) and dexterity (dealing with coordination, two weapon fighting)... then split charisma into charisma (presence) and comeliness (prettiness, flirtation)... I would then make saves an average of two ability modifiers...

Strength of Body - External and Internal ( Str + Con )/2 = Fort
Speed of Body - Coordination and Movement ( Dex + Agi )/2 = Ref
Speed of Mind - Assimilation of Data and Recall ( Int + Wis )/2 = Clarity
Strength of Mind - Presence and Perception ( Cha + Com )/2 = Will

Sounds like the basis of a good RPG system on its own.
 

I always liked the AD&D rule where you had to experience the thing before you could make an illusion of it.

If I had to throw together rules:

Illusions deal "real" damage. If later the victem of an attacking illusion disbelieves it, all the damage the illusion dealt to them becomes subdual. Illusions can't kill. Victems going to 0 or below through the attacks of an illusion simply become unconcious and all the damage becomes subdual. (Though some special ones can)

If an illusion attacks a victem in melee, it uses the caster's attack bonus. Dagger of Lath has a good idea here.

If the foe has actually experienced whatever it is that the illusion is mimicking, then he or she gets a +4 on his or her will save to disbelieve the illusion.

The caster has to have experienced whatever he or she is trying to duplicate with an illusion. Ever seen a sphere of annihilation? No? Then you can't silent image one. Want to major image one? Well, unless you have touched one, I doubt you get that right.

If you interact with an illusion using a sense it doesn't emulate (Like listening to see if the Ogre Silent Image makes loud stomps with it's feet) you get +4 to your saving throw when you try to disbelieve.

Foes subject to the special attacks of an illusion (Like a medusa's gaze) that the illusion can't duplicate the effects of, get a save as normal for the mimicked attack. (using the spell's DC, modified by any bonuses the subject may have such as familiarity with the effect) Failure means they believe the effect and fall victem to it. (So if they failed their save against an illusory medusa, they would hold still, thinking they were petrified)
Illusions inflicting effects that last longer than Instantaneous allow a saving throw each round to realize the ruse. (So after a while, the guy who was "petrified" by the medusa illusion would get tired of standing and realize "Wait a minute...") This doesn't negate the illusion, but provides the above +4 due to unemulated interaction.

Lastly: If you wish to disbelieve an illusion, you must do so completely; You must not resist any of it's attacks. If you do, then you believe there is an off chance it could be real, and the disbelief fails. Thusly, if the "illusion" attacks and you wish to disbelieve it, you must allow yourself to be struck. (Treated as helpless; You want to be struck and I am sure if it is a real creature, it will take that perfect shot) If it uses an effect that allows a saving throw, like a dragon's breath weapon, you must voluntarily fail the save. Improved Evasion cannot apply to this. Your defences cannot apply to this either; So if you have a ring of fire immunity / resistance, you would have to take it off to disbelieve the red dragon's breath.
 

airwalkrr said:
I have long considered having a fourth save: perception, which is tied to Wisdom. IMC Will saves are tied to Charisma, but I have labored over the idea of having illusion spells grant Perception saves instead.

I really, really like that. I've never liked the fact that will saves are tied to wisdom since I consider charisma to be a measure of willpower, and I also like that a perception save could be used to replace the spot and listen skills, which I think every character should have.

Awesome idea! Totally stolen.
 

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