Your opinion of The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? (SPOILER CAUTION)

[Storm Raven]

I really liked the first series, oh so long ago. The second series was distinctly inferior. I don't even remember if I finished it, which probably says something about my opinions. I loved the Illearth War.

The second series is built for a great ending. It is worth getting through to the end.

Tho I can't remember the character's name, the blind guy in IW really make Coventant look bad. He took a negative and made it a positive. Covenant took a negative and wallowed in it. I have a much higher opinion of people in general than the statement "He is what many normal people would likely be like if thrust into a similar situation," supports.

The main point of his character is that he failed. For all of his virtues and well meaning intentions, he was utterly incapable of defeating Lord Foul, or really foiling his plans to any extent. The point of Troy was that he was a false hope.

As far as most people "doing better", are you a hero in your real life? Have you faced up to Satan in a one on one battle and prevailed? Have you encountered the vilest of villains and perservered? Why would you expect most people, who are ordinary int heir everyday lives, would become virtuous heroes simply because their landscape changed?

I believe Covenant was a bad person that handled his bad situation badly, not a normal person in a bad situation.

He defeated Satan twice. I don't see how that counts as handling a situation "badly" in the end. Sure he screwed up along the way (in some cases, in major ways), but he succeeded at the most critical task.

 

[foscadh]

I didn't vote on this one. I felt that the first series was incredibly good writeing but something I wanted to rad more than once. I don't think the second series was as good or maybe just not as fresh and as I recall even darker. Certainly neither serieris was light escapist reading.

 

[Storminator]

The second series is built for a great ending. It is worth getting through to the end.

It wasn't compelling enough for me. As I said, I can't even remember how far I got, which means that I didn't have faith the ending would be a pay off. And a series of long books needs to have something more along the way.

The main point of his character is that he failed. For all of his virtues and well meaning intentions, he was utterly incapable of defeating Lord Foul, or really foiling his plans to any extent. The point of Troy was that he was a false hope.

But he did everything he could. You can't ask more a person than that. His failure was that he was completely outmatched.

As far as most people "doing better", are you a hero in your real life? Have you faced up to Satan in a one on one battle and prevailed? Have you encountered the vilest of villains and perservered? Why would you expect most people, who are ordinary in their everyday lives, would become virtuous heroes simply because their landscape changed?

Do I do anything heroic in real life? No. Do I live as best I can and try to make a difference in the lives of those around me? You bet. Did Covenant? Not a chance. I consider myself and nearly everyone I know to be better as people than Covenant. He doesn't even rise to the level of "ordinary people" in my mind.

He defeated Satan twice. I don't see how that counts as handling a situation "badly" in the end. Sure he screwed up along the way (in some cases, in major ways), but he succeeded at the most critical task.

I rather think that if I weilded White Gold, I would have kicked Lord Foul's ass seven ways to Sunday. I don't see any (and I literally mean ANY) of Covenant's victories coming from his virtues as a person. He happened to be walking around with artifact level magic, and that is the ONLY thing he brought to the table. I truly believe that anyone with White Gold would have had at least equal success. That's pretty sad for a main character.

PS

 

[Rhialto]

You know, at the risk of getting all analytical on you--Hile Troy struck me as far worse fundamentally than Covenant. He sacrifices the lives of hundreds for what is ultimately egotism, and arrogance. Hile's motives sound good, I'd admit, but poke beneath the surface, and he's just a boy who desperately wants to be a hero. He and Elena both make the same mistake--they think you can beat Foul with power, and you can't. The secret to wielding the White Gold successfully lies in resisting the lure of easy power. That is what allows Covenant to beat Foul in the end--that and his self-knowledge, that he is not a hero, not the one who can kill evil and make everything right. He can only contain evil for awhile--and sometimes, that's enough.

 

[SableWyvern]

I rather think that if I weilded White Gold, I would have kicked Lord Foul's ass seven ways to Sunday.
PS

But, as I see it, the whole nature of power, and the White Gold means that such an outlook would have resulted in failure. In Covenant's position, I probably would have also made such an attempt. And, in the process, destroyed the Arch of Time and provided Lord Foul with his ultimate victory.

Interestingly, although I can't identify with Covenant on a personal level; and although I don't have a lot of respect for the people I know who are most similar in dispostion to him, I never had a problem with him as a character.

It wasn't until seeing him discussed now and again on these boards that I realised how despised he was - both amongst fans and those who ultimately didn't like the books.

 

[Storm Raven]

I rather think that if I weilded White Gold, I would have kicked Lord Foul's ass seven ways to Sunday. I don't see any (and I literally mean ANY) of Covenant's victories coming from his virtues as a person. He happened to be walking around with artifact level magic, and that is the ONLY thing he brought to the table. I truly believe that anyone with White Gold would have had at least equal success. That's pretty sad for a main character.

You didn't pay much attention to the story did you?

Trying to "kick Lord Foul's ass seven ways to Sunday" would have resulted in failure. He cannot be confronted with force, he prospers on that. Lord Foul was never defeated with magical might, or military force, or any kind of direct confrontation.

He was defeated by laughter and self-sacrifice. You cannot defeat Lord Foul by "kicking his ass". It doesn't work. It is a strategy always doomed to failure.

So, in effect, you would have been a failure had you been the white gold wielder.

Further, the white gold was only a symbol. The true power was inside Covenant, and could not be separated from him. That is why Lord Foul was unable to defeat Covenant in the end.

 

[Storminator]

You didn't pay much attention to the story did you?

<SNIP>

Impressive. You're right, I must have missed that ENORMOUSLY subtle point. I must yield to your absolutely impeccable reasoning.

I'm glad you interpreted my "kick his ass" comment in the light most favorable to my argument. You are slightly incorrect tho. I actually meant physically putting my boot in Lord Foul's behind. Furthermore, I really meant that I would do it seven times, and that I would be finished by the end of the week. Just think of how much better off the Land would be if I were there!

But in light of your stunning arguments I retract all of my previous statements. Covenant is the model of a savior. He conducted himself in an exemplary and admirable manner at all times, and I only wish my friends and family were as virtuous as he.

Thank you for setting me straight.

PS

 

[Rhialto]

*Sigh*

I hate it when they get all sarcastic on you...

(And saying you would "have kicked Lord Foul's ass" doesn't exactly give on the idea that you would have given a lot of thought about defeating him...)

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm glad you interpreted my "kick his ass" comment in the light most favorable to my argument. You are slightly incorrect tho. I actually meant physically putting my boot in Lord Foul's behind. Furthermore, I really meant that I would do it seven times, and that I would be finished by the end of the week. Just think of how much better off the Land would be if I were there!

Given that you missed the entire point of Troy's character, I think you didn't understand anything that was in the Covenant books.

Troy was a false hope. Yes, he did do everything he could. The point is that what he was trying to do was counterproductive to defeating Lord Foul. Trying to confront Troy in a direct battle is self-defeating. Lord Foul cannot be defeated in a war, war is Lord Foul's weapon. The very existence of a war is beneficial to Lord Foul.

Elena was a false hope. She summoned Kevin to directly confront Lord Foul in battle. Kevin was overcome, Elena's plans to directly defeat Lord Foul with force were doomed. Fighting with Lord Foul in a confrontation of magical, or physical power is a guaranteed loss.

So, when you say you would have "kicked Lord Foul's ass six ways to Sunday", the clear implication being that you would have confronted him and sought to defeat him in some sort of conflict, you miss the entire point of the story.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hile Troy (SPOILER)

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One must wonder if Stephen Donaldson the Author chose the name Hile Troy, because in classic literature there was a Troy who represented false hope?

Although I would daresay Hile Troy did the best he could, he did better than most military generals in the Real World have done historically, and he did better than I think any D&D character (except that rare 1 in 1,000) would have done.

Hile Troy had the Warward:

16,000 men and women on foot, lightly armored, heavily armed.
4,000 men and women on horseback, lightly armored, heavily armed.
About 8 Lords (men and women of (equivalent) high level both as fighters and mages/druids.)

Hile Troy was hoping for help from the Unhomed. As ANYONE who has read the Illearth War knows, that worked out rather ... badly.

Lord Foul had the Army of Fleshharrower

20,000 Cresh (giant wolves) (approximate.)
20,000 Ur-Viles (all of them mages)
20,000 Cave Wights (all of them very formidable fighters)
400,000 (approximately) monsters created from the Illearth Stone and native beings of the Sarangrave and other places.
A shard of the Illearth Stone (the equivalent of an artifact/relic.)

Mind you, Fleshharrow was leading only a little over a THIRD of Lord Foul's total force.
(Lord Foul was holding back the rest of his forces, for - incredibly - he was expecting Fleshharrower to be defeated. However, Hile Troy did not know this!)

Hile Troy received bad intelligence, and did not know Fleshharrower was coming until 10 days after he set out.
The only defensible place east of Andelain, Landsdrop, could not be reached by the Warward prior to Fleshharrower's arrival.
Hile Troy estimated Lord Foul's strength at 50 thousand (maybe 100 thousand at the outside.)

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Now how in the name of all the Gods is anyone supposed to be able to win against odds like those???

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Even when Minas Tirith was besieged (The Siege of Gondor, Chapter 3, Return of the King, by Tolkien) the odds were not nearly so bad for the Men of Gondor.
Even had Theoden and the Rohirrim not shown up, and even if the Corsairs of Umbar HAD shown up (and not Aragorn and the army of Lebinnin instead), the odds would not have been so lopsided.

Of the Warward, only 4,000 of them survived.
About 4 of the 8 Lords survived.
Hile Troy, effectively did not survive.

Yet, his strategy saw Fleshharrower's entire army destroyed, to the last and least.
Fleshharrower himself was caught and hung, although the Raver escaped (after terrible suffering.)

A pretty good job by Hile Troy, really.
I defy anyone else in his position to do it better.

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P:S Oh yes, while Foul was building his colossal army, the Lords were building a pretty rock garden and a beautiful, graceful, defenseless tree city.
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

P:S Maybe if the Lords and Hile Troy had built a GUN AND AMMO FACTORY, things might have gone differently.
Troy could have done it, too. He came from Covenant's world, from the ARMY of all places, and he plenty of time in which to instruct the people of the Land on Firearms.
But no, they have to spend their time arranging pretty rocks and growing trees. Can't waste their time doing something that actually might enable their survival.

P:S Knowledge unearned ALWAYS rebounds on the learner (much less the user of such unearned knowledge), in the Land.
The Lords understood this particular Law of their world very, very well.
So why in the name of the Creator did they presume to seek the Seventh Ward (even if it did approach them first) when they had not yet gained the first Six Wards?
Did they ever consider their own wisdom? Nothing is given out freely (even if it tries to give itself away!) Everything must be earned. Power and understanding requires effort and sacrifice.
But, of course, when a chance at power came, wisdom and restraint went out the window, and they went for the Seventh Ward.
Doesn't wisdom and restraint usually go out the window when power beckons? All too often, it happens in our Real World.