Your Own Personal Pelor?

[diaglo]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=80

read like the next 5 or so after that one too.

 

[DMScott]

Given that Clerics in DnD seem to gain powers from worshiping a principle or an idea, regardless of whether or not that thing has a personality or ability to grant powers, can an admitedly psychotic individual gain powers by worshiping himself/herself?

I don't use the powers-from-a-philosopy schtick in my campaigns, but if I did it seems to me such an individual would actually be gaining powers from the philosophy or ideal of narcissism. Or perhaps solipsism (the theory that the self is the only reality). So whether you could gain clerical abilities from that would be a DM's call. I suspect that if you could, it'd be pretty well known - narcissism isn't exactly rare. Solipsism is rare enough that it could maybe make a good hook for a fairly unique NPC.

I am thinking about taking the storyline of the old Punch and Judy shows and making it a kind of mystic story that is spreading. The main character, Punch, has overcome death and gained powers similar to a clerics by basicallybeing so absolutely sure that he is right. He is now head of a loose cult of followers whose motto is "Do what thou will, that is the whole of the law."
Even if he cannot gain powers as a cleric, could his followers?

I think it's more likely that he'd gain powers and his followers wouldn't. Anybody who could be called a "follower" isn't sufficiently narcissistic/solipsistic to be a cleric of the philosophy in question. Although maybe the philosophy of Gullibility also hands out power... that at least would mean there'd always be a cleric around when you needed one.

As an aside, the Wiccan Rede version of Crowley's motto is "An it harm none, do what ye will." That version, it seems to me, is considerably less likely to lead to wholesale slaughter, so may or may not be more appropriate for what you have in mind.

 

[Stormborn]

"http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gia...ootscript?SK=80

read like the next 5 or so after that one too. "


Actually, it was that very thing that made me think of this again.

I am agreeing with diaglo, somethings wrong. Maybe I have a fever.

DMScott, no whole sale slaughter would pretty much be the way to go with this. As for the followers powers, I think it comes down to the source of powers, is it faith or not? If it is Faith then they could, and the reason that most people don't becoem Clerics of themselves is they never achieve that level of unbriddled self assurance that only comes with insanity. The most vain and egotistical person stillhas some doubts, and those doubts prevent them from crossing into the realms of demi-godhood.

 

[diaglo]

Banjothulu RULZ...

edit: Reach out and Touch Him...

 

[Torm]

As an aside, the Wiccan Rede version of Crowley's motto is "An it harm none, do what ye will." That version, it seems to me, is considerably less likely to lead to wholesale slaughter, so may or may not be more appropriate for what you have in mind.

With the exception of that one (rather HUGE in practice) difference, the Wiccan Rede still has the problem I discussed above with the Satanic Law for his purposes - the cult leader would have no binding force to use on his followers, because once again, they believe THEY have a direct connection to "The Source".

No, they need to believe their salvation\redemption\afterlife\whatever can ONLY be reached through the cult leader, or he has almost no power over them. Maybe a slightly more benign cult leader would tell them the power is theirs, but he has the focus they need to achieve it, but still, he has to have SOME power hook.

 

[Henry]

Even if he cannot gain powers as a cleric, could his followers?

Keep in mind that, by the 3rd edition rules, there are no prohibitions against that philosophy or force that a cleric draws strength from being "I am a god." So a cleric could be "his own personal Pelor" (cute one, Stormborn ) and draw his own powers from himself.

If he loses faith in himself, then those powers go away. This is one person who ABSOLUTELY CANNOT afford to have a bad day.

 

[Chris Durham]

The "Do As Thou Wilt" that is the primary tenet of the Church of Satan doesn't serve to bind it as an organization, as you might imagine

Pease don't confuse Crowley (Thelema) with Satanism. Modern-day satanists owe as much to Crowley as they do to Darwin and Nietzche, but one is not the other.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

There is no law beyond do what thou wilt.

Love is the law, love under will.

[as presented to, and scribed by, Aleister Crowley. Just a point of clarification.]

With the exception of that one (rather HUGE in practice) difference, the Wiccan Rede still has the problem I discussed above with the Satanic Law for his purposes

Being that the aforementioned law is Crowleyan and not Satanic, and Wicca is just a watered-down, bastatrdized version of Crowley, the vail between their differences is sheerer than you might think.

Notice this nowhere says do what you want, but do what you will. This can be seen as either casually existential or a matter of true will. Will in this sense being a much more comprehensive thing than whim or desire which are often contadictory to will. For example, it is my will to lose weight, but I want a Big Mac. Under "Do what thou wilt," I should should not pig out.

It is very often the case that doing one's will requires one to conform to structure. My will is to be a writer, but I don't want to learn to type. I'm SOL then, because not too many publishers accept handwritten manuscripts these days. Whether I want to or not, I need to learn to type in order to do my will.

Such structure can take the form of a "Cult," which (do not forgive me if I offend you, I do not care) is another word for religion, even christianity. It's actually just the word that one religion uses to refer to another (so long as the recipient of the name isn't large enough for the naming party to fear reprisal), but I digress. The difference with such a religion or cult is that its members aren't fanatics. Given discretion in their beliefs, they are much more skeptical of control tactics; they have a bigger BS-sense.

 

[Stormborn]

Keep in mind that, by the 3rd edition rules, there are no prohibitions against that philosophy or force that a cleric draws strength from being "I am a god." So a cleric could be "his own personal Pelor" (cute one, Stormborn ) and draw his own powers from himself.

If he loses faith in himself, then those powers go away. This is one person who ABSOLUTELY CANNOT afford to have a bad day.

Thanks! Yes, certainly going to have to maintain that self assurance or else. I think that his followers would more likely be Bards if they have a PC class, who better to run the puppet shows that seduce the little kiddies? The rest would likely be commoners and experts. However, IIRC one of the supporting cast could easelly be a monk, maybe one who has really strayed from the path.

Oh, and let me just say that some of the comments in this thread seem like they are close to a violation of Board Policy (not to mention on occasion technically wrong from a Sociology of Religion stand point) and I would ask that to prevent this thread from being closed we try and stick to the subject at hand: the source of clerical powers in DnD and its specific application to a possibly mad man. Thanks.

 

[Turanil]

Given that Clerics in DnD seem to gain powers from worshiping a principle or an idea, regardless of whether or not that thing has a personality or ability to grant powers, can an admitedly psychotic individual gain powers by worshiping himself/herself?
I am thinking about taking the storyline of the old Punch and Judy shows and making it a kind of mystic story that is spreading. The main character, Punch, has overcome death and gained powers similar to a clerics by basicallybeing so absolutely sure that he is right. He is now head of a loose cult of followers whose motto is "Do what thou will, that is the whole of the law."
Even if he cannot gain powers as a cleric, could his followers?

In my campaign I wouldn't allow it. Only the gods can give divine magic, and where "philosophies" are concerned (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos), the divine magic is granted by relevant beings such as angels, fiends, etc., who in this case serve the same ideal.

In your case, I would jump on the opportunity to do this: the psychotic character would be deluded by some fiends to eventually do things that would further the cause of Evil (or Chaos). The character may believe he works for some other cause, for a greater good or what not. However, slowly his madness and the fiends giving him divine powers would lead him to do atrocities in the name of Good or whatnot. So in the end, he would serve Evil (or Chaos) and get divine powers from the forces that promote it. IMO: this would make some very interesting campaign plot.

 

[Henry]

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's steer clear of validities of real-world religions, please. It's walked a fine line enough as it is, and even then is steering the thread's topic away from its game application. If real-world religions are mentioned, let's please make sure they only have direct relation to the game rules under discussion, please?

Thanks.

Henry

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