D&D General Your thoughts on "Social Combat" systems

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
Agreed. Though within the context of rules for a RPG, they are one and the same, as they are both narrative constructs.
[Snip]
I do not disagree with any of this. Also, I never intended to imply a reduction in player agency, only character agency, under the necessary contract of "play-acting".

We agree, just differently.

I see play-acting as an unnecessary and un-fun element, if you enjoy a narrative governance of a character as separate from a player in motivation, that's your contract and your call.
 

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I think the biggest weakness of "social combat" systems has been pretty well-covered - they tend to make things into dull dice-rolling contests, and lack the nuance and engagement of "actual combat", because they're never as well-developed.

It doesn't have to be that way. Griftlands, a computer game, has equally developed social and physical conflict, and shows it could be done. But I've never seen a TT RPG do both well, and bolting "social combat" on to one not designed for it is likely to end in tears.

I think going with "one persuasion roll" or the like can be extremely bad too, note. D&D 5E uses an extremely random system, where even heavy investment in social stuff can mean it's only 50/50, at best, to persuade someone, and you can spend 15 minutes roleplaying and just to roll a die and you get an 11 when you needed a 12, and that sucks for everyone, even with fail-forward and so on. So I think that's a place where it makes sense to use multiple rolls, like best of 5 or something. It's not a complex/intrusive system but it means that the person who has heavy investment in social actually gets to benefit from it, in a similar way the combat-invested people and so on.

Of course the very worst is one I've encountered a bit - where a DM makes you roll after basically every sentence, and takes the approach that any failure is a total failure and conversation over and so on. That's horrific, but not as rare as I'd like to think it was. It's like if in combat, every round was save-or-die or something.

I'd agree with powers that change stuff up are pretty cool, and a good approach for D&D. Add that to "best of X" rolling approaches and you have a pretty good way to handle social stuff in D&D without bogging things down, or making things rest on one wildly random roll.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
PCs can stand around and make attack rolls against a door in D20 and even do hit point damage to it. It would feel bizarre to call that a combat system.

All tissues are Kleenex.

This thread is based on the fact that D&D lacks some sub-systems, so our common language lacks some terms.

The general term for combat and dealing with these social issues is "conflict resolution". But, the only conflict resolution D&D really has is combat, so all conflict resolution is combat. Just roll with it.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I disagree. Both are a matter of what is dictated by the rules. The fact that one is a fictional death and the other is a fictional change of mind is beside the point. The fact that numerous RPG systems model "social conflict" and "physical combat" using the same system is proof of that.

But what about charm spells, or illusions, or psychic mind control.
Those are instances of the characters agency being removed within the fiction, which is an entirely different type of situation. And notably, many people despise those mechanics and would see them removed from the game, or made explicitly optional at least. I know a couple DMs who are strait up not allowed to use them in a campaign with certain players.
What if I as a player simply doesn't want my PC to be hurt by physical attacks? Again, it comes down to the rules that players are willing to follow.
That would be absurd. Taking damage doesn’t remove agency. It doesn’t force the player to allow the system to determine the decisions made by their character.
If one is using a "social combat" system that states that a PC who loses an argument is convinced of something, then to not have the PC act as though they are convinced would be breaking the rules. The same way not reducing HP after getting hit with an attack in a system that dictates that a PC loses HP when getting hit with an attack would be breaking the rules.
And that type of system is bad. Full stop. That is literally what the thread is about; Are social combat systems good, which social combat systems are good or bad, etc.
Further, such a system is absurd, because losing an argument doesn’t force people to change their minds. The system is forcing the character to make a decision, without the player’s input. That is a bad mechanic.
No, player agency is preserved in either case as player agency is the ability of the player to make meaningful choices within the narrative. Player agency doesn't mean always being in control of what a PC thinks or feels.
Wow. Yeah that’s conversation done, then. Your view of how the game works is wholly incompatible with my own.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
No, player agency is preserved in either case as player agency is the ability of the player to make meaningful choices within the narrative. Player agency doesn't mean always being in control of what a PC thinks or feels.

"You cannot have your character think or feel anything but X," is a reduction in agency.
 

Those are instances of the characters agency being removed within the fiction, which is an entirely different type of situation. And notably, many people despise those mechanics and would see them removed from the game, or made explicitly optional at least. I know a couple DMs who are strait up not allowed to use them in a campaign with certain players.
I've met the kind of players that wouldn't want charm mechanics in a game before, I can't game with those kind of players, too much whining when something doesn't go their way.
That would be absurd. Taking damage doesn’t remove agency. It doesn’t force the player to allow the system to determine the decisions made by their character.
It can, if it kills their character. A dead character can't make any decisions.
And that type of system is bad. Full stop. That is literally what the thread is about; Are social combat systems good, which social combat systems are good or bad, etc.
Further, such a system is absurd, because losing an argument doesn’t force people to change their minds. The system is forcing the character to make a decision, without the player’s input. That is a bad mechanic.
Well, it exists in a number of games, and the people who play those games like it as far as I know. I guess some people just don't want to game the way you do, sorry we have badwrongfun and don't follow your OneTrueWay.
Wow. Yeah that’s conversation done, then. Your view of how the game works is wholly incompatible with my own.
I already knew that.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I've met the kind of players that wouldn't want charm mechanics in a game before

THE kind? There's only one kind? Interesting assertion.

Players who have raised concerns with such mechanics in games in my presence were either past victims of abusive relationships, or well acquainted with people who were victims. There's this thing called empathy...

So, maybe what you describe isn't the whole story there.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It can, if it kills their character. A dead character can't make any decisions.
The rest of your reply was needless snark and general rudeness, and insults to people who play differently from you, so I won’t engage with it, but this is just such a disingenuous, absurd, thing to say.

There is an obvious difference between not having any decisions to make, and the game mechanics making the characters decisions for them.
 

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