Your Thoughts on the Heroization of D&D 3.x

[Desdichado]

I don't see how this argument is all that significant. I mean, yeah, I can see hong's point, but I could just as easily produce the "creeping GUPRPsification of D&D" model and support it with just as much evidence.

But what's the point? Of either theory?

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't see how this argument is all that significant. I mean, yeah, I can see hong's point, but I could just as easily produce the "creeping GUPRPsification of D&D" model and support it with just as much evidence.

But what's the point? Of either theory?

I asked that about a page ago.

I suspect it's just to point out that Hero and 3rd ed have more in common than previous editions of D&D.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Hero and D&D

D&D is an old game and many games out there were made to "fix" things in D&D. Then the 3.0 team came along and looked at those things and saw what they could do to "fix" D&D. The sorceror is a response to people who hated the way a wizard casts magic; The skill system is an almost exact reproduction of the Ars Magica system (given that both were written by Johnathan Tweet); the feat system was a response to games like GURPS that allowed players to modify their characters; and the edgier method of gameplay was a response to the success of the World of Darkness. Then again, the emphasis on "kick in the door" and dungeoncrawls was very much a reaction against such things in the game development community (just look at GURPS Fantasy 2nd edition and their essay on the inherent racism and dungeon-crawling of "traditional", i.e. D&D style fantasy).

I would say that Skills & Powers was more of an attempt at "Heroization" than 3.0 or 3.5, though some feats are more like Hero talents and some border on powers. D&D has nowhere near the customizability of Hero, though it seems sometimes that character creation takes about as long.

 

[MerricB]

HERO is a bottom-up system.

D&D is a top-down system.

Cheers!

 

[Doug McCrae]

the edgier method of gameplay was a response to the success of the World of Darkness.

What edgier method of gameplay?

 

[barsoomcore]

I think hong has explained numerous times what the point of this thread is, people.

D&D is exactly the same as HERO.

I don't see what the fuss is. Like hong has been saying all along, they're identical.

Geez.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Er...

Sorry, I meant the edgier, darker presentation of 3.0 and 3.5, I had a thread on this a long, long time ago and being as old as I am I can't remember what I said.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The 'dungeonpunk' style art you mean?

 

[M.L. Martin]

As one of the three lonely supporters of Creeping HEROization , there's one thing I'd like to see brought in that I think would help the game's flexibility immensely and reduce some of the complaints that have been made against 3E--specifically, the emphasis on gear and complaints of 'cookie cutter' builds.

Effects-based balance.

Give us about 6--12 pages on the various roles in a party--there appear to be four basic ones in D&D, Warrior, Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, and Skill-User, although you might be able to break the last one down into Social, Wilderness, and Rogue/Dungeon-Crawler. Explain how each class in the game fits into those roles, and what each of them should have for stats and capabilities at a given level, in a general sense. I.e., a 10th level Warrior Type should have a BAB and AC in this range; a full-fledged Arcane Caster should acquire the ability to fly at Level X, but should not be able to use it more than a few times a day until Level Y, etc.

Then let the DM determine how to reach those goals in a given game. The 'default' is through a combination of experience levels and equipment, but DMs may wish to reduce the importance of equipment by increasing class abilities and reducing treasure to compensate, adding bloodlines or templates, or completely redefining the whole character advancement paradigm. Notes on the boons and drawbacks of each method should be included, of course--equipment can be stolen or destroyed more easily, but can also be loaned to other characters and used in the event of a character's absence or death. This would also make the CR system more useful--if we have an example of what a typical group is at each level, it gives us a clearer handle on what 'a suitable challenge for a party of X level' actually means.

Now, I haven't kept up very well with the d20 market, for a variety of reasons, so maybe someone's already done this. But I think it's one case where an effects-based approach would be a real benefit to the game.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[Acid_crash]

If we just look at HERO and D&D, then the two will have some similarities but that is as far as it will get. If some people believe that D&D = d20, then HERO is much closer to D&D than we sometimes think.

Anything produced from the OGL, whether it uses the d20 logo or not uses the d20 system as a base system. Mutants and Masterminds, sometimes dubbed HERO Lite where I live, is a d20 game in all aspects that provides an effects based engine, no classes, and no hit points...but at its very core it is still a d20 game. HERO vs. MnM has been going on since MnM came out, with MnM usually coming out on top by a small margin of popularity.

Other d20 products I can think of include some pdf only products: Four Color to Fantasy which introduces a effects based engine with a specific Hero class to be completely used in addition to D&D classes, and it does have guidelines on using hero points instead of powerful magic items to make up the difference in magic items that characters do have and those that don't. Use this product, give each character a couple hero points and bamm, you got yourself an effects based game that works with D&D.

Buy The Numbers (I think that is the title, but could be wrong) is a product I read a review on that is a XP expenditure system where people spend their own XP to gain abilities instead of going up a level and getting everything all at once.

If we take in FC2F and BTN and MnM we can see the HEROization of d20/D&D is much closer than even I thought it would be. MnM is in a category of its own, though, so if the other two are used alongside D&D, how close would D&D be to HERO?