Your thoughts on the power of prestige classes

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Different people seem to have different ideas of what prestige classes are supposed to do. For instance, some of my players think that the whole point of a PrC is to boost the PC's powers, at the expense of taking some suboptimal feats or skills. I think that the only reason to allow a PrC is for flavor, and the PrC'd character shouldn't be any more powerful than a straight single-classed whatever. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Okay, I'll bite: what is it about having the same power as another class that makes it "flavor only?" That makes no sense to me. The core classes are reasonably well balanced against each other, but they have different functions, not different "flavors."

 

[jmucchiello]

There's no point to a PrC that is worse than a normal class. Thus, the reason a player takes the PrC is that he perceives the abilities that it grants are better (cooler, whatever) than the abilities of the straight class character. Thus by definition that player is going to feel that the PrC is more powerful (better, cooler) than the straight class. I don't understand people who are against "powerful" PrCs. By definition people play one class over an other because they believe its abilities are better (cooler, more in line with their personality) than the other classes' abilities.

Flavor must be backed by substance. You don't squeeze ketchup straight into your mouth because it tastes good on a hamburger. You can create a PrC with amazing flavor for some monks on a mountain top who can copy a book in two days no matter the length (at 10th level). But if no player plays it, and no villain has it, it may as well not exist from the player's point of view.

The tightrope walked by PrC writers is to make the class seem more powerful with actually making it more powerful. Some designers fail at this. Don't buy their books. But it is not a power vs flavor argument. From your poll, there cannot be a PrC which is balanced but has generic flavor. I don't buy that.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com

 

[Sejs]

most of the PrCs seem to come in one of three flavors:

-Membership in some organization: Fist of Hextor, Mage of the Arcane Order, Knight of the Middle Circle, or..

-Specilization in one aspect something you can already do: Order of the Bow Initiate, Mindbender, Tempest, or..

-Hybridizing some of Class X abilities with Class Y abilies more smoothly then you would get by just taking 50/50 in each class: True Necromancer, Arcane Trickster, Warpriest.


I think PrCs that focus on one aspect should be more powerful -in that aspect- then a single classed whatever who can do that one thing pretty well, but still all the other things associated with their class just as well. Should a Fighter 10/Deepwoods Sniper 10 be a better archer then a Fighter 20? Yeah, I think they should. That fighter 20 will have so many feats left over as to be able to diversify their abilities.

PrCs are also kinda limiting in and of themselves. If you're a 7th level rogue and you make enough exp to reach 8th level, you can't just go.. Oop, okay. I'm a Shadowdancer now. Go me. Nuh uh. Find someone to train you. Gain entry into that organization, find the esoteric master and convince him to teach you his Hidden Arts, come into contact with the Forbidden Powers and learn the Terrible Secret of Space. Once you've gained access to a PrC you should have earned it, at least in some way... and more so then just taking X feats and some ranks in Y skills.


That way I have no problem in having PrCs being more powerful then a single classed character.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

The tightrope walked by PrC writers is to make the class seem more powerful with actually making it more powerful. Some designers fail at this. Don't buy their books. But it is not a power vs flavor argument. From your poll, there cannot be a PrC which is balanced but has generic flavor. I don't buy that.

The biggest example of classes which are more powerful without question are the +1 to spellcasting level classes. Those are incredibly powerful classes, since any additional ability they have are layered over (usually) existing powerful classes. There's no real penalty for a sorceror, wizard, or cleric to join those classes.

As a result, I have banned most (if not all) +1 to spell casting level PrCs from my campaigns. (+1 to spell casting every other level is ok by me, especially if they get cool abilities in between)

 

[Balgus]

Since PrC has requirements for entry, they should give you rewards for joining.

It takes much more to join a ninja clan, than to train as a fighter- many more restrictions. And so they should give you incentive to do so.

But as a famous man once said, "With great power comes great responsibility" so in giving you more power than a regular class, there should be more that you have to do for the class than just train.

That is the reason why i love spell pools. they make you sacrifice spells every so often to the organization. This is what i envisioned when i first heard of PrC. And definietly not the was a lot people have been using them (take two of these, one of this, four of these, and seven here and you will the most kika$$ fighter mage, army of teh dark you will ever see...) Pfwww..

that guy would have dies the day after he left the PrC in my campaign.

 

[Psion]

Um... it depends.

One of the express purposes for prestige classes is to make an otherwise weak concept viable. That often explicitly means giving the class abilities that make it more powerful than a single class character would with the same focus, but if the focus is weak, that means you have to compensate. Take the lasher as an example.

Further, one of the design criteria for prestige classes is that you should make the choice of whether to take a level in a prestige of base class at each level worth considering vice obvious. This is rather subjective, so what may seem strong to you may not seem strong to someone else. But some prestige classes fail on this score in a big way. If you have an arcane spellcasting class that gets neato abilities at every level AND they get full spellcasting progression, you probably overdid it.

Finally, I do not feel that you should make a prestige class if you can realize the concept in a compelling fashion with combinations of basic classes.

 

[Umbran]

I went for "other". At their best, a PrC should be balanced as more powerful within their field of expertise, but weaker otherwise. It should be a balance based in give and take...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The biggest example of classes which are more powerful without question are the +1 to spellcasting level classes. There's no real penalty for a sorceror, wizard, or cleric to join those classes.

Yep! It is hardest to balance the sorcerer, then the wizard (since they at least have bonus feats you can trade out), then the cleric (turn undead, domains), and then the druid.

Druids have a lot of special abilities you can trade off with the PrC for other things. They also get 4 skill points a level as standard, and they have an exclusive class skill-- more to tweak. They aren't a problem.

I like prestige classes for flavor. I specifically don't like prestige classes built around organizations. Just my own personal preference.

Finally, don't overlook those "sub-optimal feats" as requirements. I try not to use them myself as simply a balancing mechanism, but I can at least concede that it is a valid mechanism. Feats are precious; giving up a feat to Endurance or Toughness, to pick just two examples, is a serious drag. Hell, I was cheesed off when I had to take Weapon Focus to qualify for a PrC... And that's actually a decent feat!


Wulf

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I voted Other.

In principle, I have nothing against a PrC being more powerful than a core class in a narrow activity provided they give up some flexibility.

In practive, I see a boatload of PrCs with a few minor downsides and a lot of powerful benefits. IMO, most of those PrC abilities should be converted to feat chains, and then we could more easily evaluate the power level of the abilities.

A very telling detail is how these "focused" PrCs often have both more extensive class skill lists and more skill points then comparable core class. WTF?!? That is exactly backwards. The core classes are the generalists, relatively speaking, and should have more opportunity for breadth of experience.

I also recognize some character concepts that straddle spellcasting and nonspellcasting classes are often a little underpowered in 3e if using core classes only. IMO a little boost from a PrC can be justified. But the turbocharged Arcane Trickster and Arcane Archer are far too over the top in my book.