You're approached by a Hollywood exec...

[Ralif Redhammer]

The movie is better than the take, yes (Taylor Kitsch is also a better actor than he appears to be in it), but the fundamental problem with John Carter is that the books don't have anything "special" about them, beyond their status as a historical artefact, and being somewhat influential. Also the audience that grew up reading them is now, um, a little past it and was never huge.

That's the thing about ERB (and Lord Dunsany and REH, whom I mentioned in another thread) - people might not be able to name their stories and characters, but I guarantee if you magically removed them from existence, the shape of fiction would be irrevocably altered. I'm reminded of Ray Bradbury talking about how Barsoom affected him:

"I would go out to that lawn on summer nights and reach up to the red light of Mars and say, “Take me home!” I yearned to fly away and land there in the strange dusts that blew over dead-sea bottoms toward the ancient cities."

Partly this is because they've been influential re: steampunk-y depictions of Mars. I think someone mentioned this re: some of Moorcock's works, where they've been influential enough that some of them would also seem pretty "expected" or not terribly exciting - Von Bek would probably read like a Warhammer Fantasy fan novel, even though the opposite it true (Elric you could certainly still do).

Carter himself is also not as interesting a lead as say, Frodo or even Conan. He's a pretty straight-down-the-line male lead, and we still don't have a shortage of straightforward male leads (c.f. Netflix/Prime movies being churned out by the dozen). He doesn't have a strong ensemble cast to rely on. Sure the titular princess is considerably more interesting than him but she's not got the role that she might have.

So what are you left with? A fairly straightforward Isekai with a boring central character? Cut-rate Avatar? I mean, would there be Avatar without John Carter? Maybe, maybe not, but that shows more like what it would need to be to cut it today.

John Carter as a character is arguably no more or less boring than Superman (as @Ryujin pointed out, John Carter was a strong influence on Superman) and Captain America. Who, arguably, are also both characters in Isekai stories.

 

[Ryujin]

Wait wait wait, is THAT why Superman is strong originally? Krypton had higher gravity? I thought it was because of much more bizarre "Earth's Yellow Sun" reason? Which I'd see as non-derivative and in fact a little bit insane but causative of a lot of derivation of its own. But is Earth's Yellow Sun a retcon itself you're saying?

The yellow sun was certainly part of it; the heat vision, invulnerability, and such, but Krypton also had a much higher gravity than Earth, so "Leap tall buildings..." and super strength. More recently it's become more about the sun than gravity.

I think it's sufficiently well-known that maybe they would, but only briefly, due to armies of nerds on the internet. Like when all those young 20-something TikTokers and Instagrammers were complaining about people dropping "spoilers" about the Odyssey movie before being educated that it was a perhaps 3000+ year old story.

Maybe, but if it comes down to duelling fandoms I think Earthsea loses by sheer volume of the other side.

I could see that happening, but I guess when I think of LotR and the many derivative works based on LotR, very few of them managed to capture the unusual-ness of Frodo as a protagonist, or the "vibes" of the fellowship, or the mournful tone about a world passing. Some of them are good, of course - like Tad Williams' heavily LotR-derivative Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, but usually for different reasons than the original. In my experience anyway.

Both "The Reluctant Hero" and "The Weak Become Strong" are massive tropes in fantasy fiction, even if a lot of readers just gloss over it for the sexy/bloody bits.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

John Carter as a character is arguably no more or less boring than Superman (as @Ryujin pointed out, John Carter was a strong influence on Superman) and Captain America. Who, arguably, are also both characters in Isekai stories.

I don't think that's true. Superman is a significantly more complex character with a more complex background and challenges. He might not have been as complex initially, but he certainly is now and has been for my lifetime.

As for Isekai, nah, the specific fantasy core to a lot of Isekai just isn't really embodied in Superman because he's explicitly an alien. It's kind of an inversion of the trope. Captain America is a simple heroic story with an interlude, and not even a very long one (19 years originally).

I guarantee if you magically removed them from existence, the shape of fiction would be irrevocably altered.

Sure, but I'm not seeing how that's relevant to him being relevant now? That's the question I think. I don't think they have anything to say now, at least based on the first book.

Both "The Reluctant Hero" and "The Weak Become Strong" are massive tropes in fantasy fiction, even if a lot of readers just gloss over it for the sexy/bloody bits.

Yes and have been tropes of adventure stories and even mythology since long before Tolkien, haven't they? I don't think LotR popularized either.

Maybe, but if it comes down to duelling fandoms I think Earthsea loses by sheer volume of the other side.

There wouldn't be though. HP Fandom is full of people who want to be right, even more so than most other fandoms. Indeed remaining HP fans are not going to be keen to be seen demeaning a famously right-on fantasy series with a non-white protagonist lol. That's the last thing they need when their author is still regularly going off on one about Trans people and has characters with names like Kingsley Shacklebolt and Cho Chang.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think one of the problems adaptations of pulp works runs into (see also the Momoa Conan the Barbarian) is that we've frequently seen filmmakers insert a Big Plot Device into it where none is needed.

I think one of the problems with pulp adaptations is that a lot of the source material works better in a medium like TV than on the big screen, in part for the exact reason you just stated.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The SyFy "Earthsea" miniseries was a true waste of a goof property. Whitewashed and genericized indeed. To top it off they crammed two books into the same series. I would certainly like to see it done right, with the concept of True Names front and centre, but people would probably think something like it's a rip-off of Harry Potter.

The way they handled magical learning was clearly Potterized. And they ticked me off by swapping the True Names.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As I recall, the strength & the density of Superman’s body were (and possibly still are) primarily due to being a heavyworlder; the yellow sun energy powers his more esoteric abilities.

 

[Ryujin]

As I recall, the strength & the density of Superman’s body were (and possibly still are) primarily due to being a heavyworlder; the yellow sun energy powers his more esoteric abilities.

Exactly. Some of the more recent stuff as bordered on Birdman power.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As I recall, the strength & the density of Superman’s body were (and possibly still are) primarily due to being a heavyworlder; the yellow sun energy powers his more esoteric abilities.

Interesting. I've read quite a lot of Superman stuff from the late 1980s onwards and certainly have no memory of ever coming across that rather than "Earth's Yellow Sun", and also I know in quite a lot of it, Superman rapidly loses his strength and toughness when not receiving those "Yellow Sun" rays, which would mean that it literally couldn't be "primarily" due to being from a high-G planet in those cases. I guess a lot of people writing Superman for comics/TV/movies also have forgotten this? Like, in Lois Lane and Superman, they can imprison Superman and other Kryptonians in a downright flimsy-seeming jail just by basically having a "Red Sun" emitter and no daylight (no Kryptonite needed), but if they were primarily super-strong and tough/dense due to being high-G, that wouldn't work, you'd still need an incredibly tough super-jail.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I don't think that's true. Superman is a significantly more complex character with a more complex background and challenges. He might not have been as complex initially, but he certainly is now and has been for my lifetime.

I would disagree. Having read every Barsoom novel, I think there's plenty complexity to John Carter's background. He's a straightforward character, but that doesn't make him boring.

As for Isekai, nah, the specific fantasy core to a lot of Isekai just isn't really embodied in Superman because he's explicitly an alien. It's kind of an inversion of the trope. Captain America is a simple heroic story with an interlude, and not even a very long one (19 years originally).

And on Barsoom, John Carter is an alien.

I think one of the problems with pulp adaptations is that a lot of the source material works better in a medium like TV than on the big screen, in part for the exact reason you just stated.

Agreed. Even the stories that were eventually collected into novels, were originally serialized tales.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I would disagree. Having read every Barsoom novel, I think there's plenty complexity to John Carter's background. He's a straightforward character, but that doesn't make him boring.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but I do wonder why you'd say there's "plenty of complexity" here? What revelations are there re: his past in later stuff? (I read the first novel.)

On the flipside, does it even matter? As noted, I think Netflix/Prime regularly put out movies and sometimes series with dull/boring central characters and they seem to do fine or at least ok.

I think the bigger issue just looking at the characters is probably the lack of much in the way of a workable supporting cast, in the modern day, especially because as noted this would work better as a TV series than a movie. They'd have to create one. Not impossible but it might significantly change the dynamics, and it has the issue that they'd all be non-humans. Could work though - c.f. Farscape!

And on Barsoom, John Carter is an alien.

Sure, but fact is, he's a human, and the audience watching it are also humans. That's why this is an Isekai, essentially (esp. due to the "fell asleep on Earth and was transported to another world" deal), whereas Superman is a trope-reversal.