Zombie Minions are too weak

[Scribble]

Yeah, minions are never EVER meant to be used in a vacuum (unless you design several minion types to work together well, but then that's still not a vacuum)

Zombies are assumed to be bolstered, or raised or otherwise improved by the presence of a necromancer, or made deadly though another zombie type. Or perhaps they can give some bonuses to something as they die. Or you can indeed put them as doorstops in a poison trap.

Goblin minions are assumed to have fewer benefits from leader types, and so each one is a bit stronger individually to compensate.

If this is the way they're created... I have an issue... I mean sure, right NOW goblin minions are assumed to have no outside benefits. But then what happens if somewhere down the line some designer decides it would be "cool" to make a goblin booster monster. Does this then change the original goblin's xp?

I understand what you're getting at, but still.

 

[unan oranis]

Yeah, minions are never EVER meant to be used in a vacuum (unless you design several minion types to work together well, but then that's still not a vacuum)

The orc minions, for example, seem pretty weak compared to Legion Devils. However, orc minions will often get the benefit of a rather powerful aura that allows them to make an extra attack when they hit zero HP. The Legion Devils are just meant to be a wall of hard to kill minions in full plate with shields.

Zombies are assumed to be bolstered, or raised or otherwise improved by the presence of a necromancer, or made deadly though another zombie type. Or perhaps they can give some bonuses to something as they die. Or you can indeed put them as doorstops in a poison trap.

Goblin minions are assumed to have fewer benefits from leader types, and so each one is a bit stronger individually to compensate.

And if you run into a bunch of zombies with no leader or necromancer, of COURSE it'll seem easy. They're just zombies.

Yeah I think you've pretty much nailed it; the stacking aura-type bonuses applying to all minions is sure to be factored into their level. I can see zombie only buffs as well as undead only buffs cranking the zombies up into real nastyness.

 

[Rechan]

Actually I would prefer to use zombie minions in a vacuum. Sprinkle a few regular zombies among them, and do a ye olde "Night of the Living Dead" - at least at early levels.

 

[Sojorn]

If this is the way they're created... I have an issue... I mean sure, right NOW goblin minions are assumed to have no outside benefits. But then what happens if somewhere down the line some designer decides it would be "cool" to make a goblin booster monster. Does this then change the original goblin's xp?

I understand what you're getting at, but still.

No, it wouldn't.

But the goblin leader might be worth a bit more XP to show that it has an unusual ability for a goblin. Just like the minions shouldn't be balanced in a vacuum, neither should the leaders.

The main weakness in the XP system is that it doesn't show synergies. That's more the domain of roles and creature type. And hopefully a healthy dose of advice about it in an encounter design section of the MM or DMG.

There is certainly a very real concern there though. I hope the designers have done their homework.

 

[Scribble]

No, it wouldn't.

But the goblin leader might be worth a bit more XP to show that it has an unusual ability for a goblin. Just like the minions shouldn't be balanced in a vacuum, neither should the leaders.

The main weakness in the XP system is that it doesn't show synergies. That's more the domain of roles and creature type. And hopefully a healthy dose of advice about it in an encounter design section of the MM or DMG.

There is certainly a very real concern there though. I hope the designers have done their homework.

But then why wouldn't the zombies be designed in that fashion as well? Just leave them at normal power, and have the controler's power/XP account for the extra abilities?

If a Goblin Controller is invented, then you run into the problem originaly stated in the post... that Goblin Minions are more powerful then zombie minions.

Then again, I guess if you account for it when you create the Goblin controller, it's the same as accounting for it when you create the zombies that always need a controller...

I'm hoping there's something I'm missing, and that the designers worked it out like you said.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, I just crunched the numbers for zombie and goblin minions against the DDXP pregen fighter. Assuming the goblins are not able to flank, the zombies perform* about 12% better than the goblins. The zombies' lower AC has a relatively minor impact, since the fighter's +6 attack bonus is good enough to connect most of the time either way. On the other hand, since the fighter has an AC of 19 (!), the zombies' increased chance to hit is quite valuable, and the extra damage helps too.

Now, this does not in fact justify the zombies being level 3. Based on the XP values we've seen, a level 3 monster should perform about 73% better than a level 1 monster. Nor does it take into account the presence of squishier characters who target defenses other than AC. Still, the zombie is a stronger opponent, at least as far as brute melee combat.

Moreover, there is also the possibility that the zombies attack under cover of darkness. Since they have darkvision and the PCs likely do not, that gives a major advantage to the zombies.

*Performance is measured by average number of rounds the monster can survive, times average amount of damage per round the monster inflicts. Zombies survive 1.43 rounds and inflict 2 points of damage per round; goblins survive 1.82 rounds and inflict 1.4 damage per round.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The interesting thing about the "cover of darkness" idea is that, at relatively low levels, the best the party will have is some small light effects, like a utility power and torches. So, they would likely see some ... but not all ... of the Zombies. So a surrounding swarm of zombie minions could be an interesting night time encounter.

 

[unan oranis]

But then why wouldn't the zombies be designed in that fashion as well? Just leave them at normal power, and have the controler's power/XP account for the extra abilities?

If a Goblin Controller is invented, then you run into the problem originaly stated in the post... that Goblin Minions are more powerful then zombie minions.

Then again, I guess if you account for it when you create the Goblin controller, it's the same as accounting for it when you create the zombies that always need a controller...

I'm hoping there's something I'm missing, and that the designers worked it out like you said.

Hmmmm... that is interesting. Yet if you give the controller extra xp for crazy minion boosting powers, what happens if he has only a few handy? or way too many?

maybe there will be some minion boosting powers that increase xp value of the minions as well?

My first thought was that the zombies were paying for the classification "zombie" like a magic card would, to capitalise on a pretty big group of synergies... now i'm not so sure.

 

[Spatula]

This idea that goblins are "assumed" to not have support and zombies are is 100% not supported by anything. Kobold minions are about as strong as the goblins, and there is a kobold booster (the wyrmpriest). Furthermore, the zombie minions used in KotS aren't used with any sort of leader-type that makes them more effective. So if the designers did build in those assumptions when making different minions, they then proceeded to ignore them when designing encounters for the 1st adventure.

Someone asked for the skeleton minion stats:
Decrepit Skeleton, lvl 1 minion (25 xp)
Init +3; Percep +2 darkvsion
AC 15, fort 13, refl 14, will 13
immune disease, poison
speed 6
longsword +6, 4 dmg
shortbow range 15/30 +6, 4 dmg

The skeleton is faster, has a better AC, has the same attack bonus & does the same damage, and has a ranged attack. And has darkvision and the same immunities as the zombie... but is 2 levels lower than the zombie rotter.

 

[Sojorn]

Ugh. Yeah, those skeleton stats do make the zombies look like XP bags. And further, that's distressing if there's nothing in the zombie encounter that actually helps them out, be it stat buffs, harder zombies or situational difficulties.

They must really pay through the nose for that extra point of (melee) damage :/