Zombie Minions are too weak

[Stalker0]

Well, I just crunched the numbers for zombie and goblin minions against the DDXP pregen fighter. Assuming the goblins are not able to flank, the zombies perform* about 12% better than the goblins.

You need more than 1 test case like this to make your point. For example, let's say I go minion crazy and against my 5 PCs I throw 20 zombie minions or 20 goblin cutters. The minions move in, and the wizard blasts a section of them an AOE before they attack. How much will the zombie's lower reflex defense hurt it then?

 

[FadedC]

This idea that goblins are "assumed" to not have support and zombies are is 100% not supported by anything. Kobold minions are about as strong as the goblins, and there is a kobold booster (the wyrmpriest). Furthermore, the zombie minions used in KotS aren't used with any sort of leader-type that makes them more effective. So if the designers did build in those assumptions when making different minions, they then proceeded to ignore them when designing encounters for the 1st adventure.

Well the key thing is perhaps not who boosts the minions but who is boosted by the minions. Most regular kobolds get +1 to hit for each other kobold near the target so kobold minions not only get to attack, but the get to give other kobolds +4 to for each group That's huge. It's not about getting support it's about giving it.

Now if the kobold minions are the same as goblin minions despite the lack of goblin synergy then that shoots down my theory. However according to the stats we have, kobold minions only do 2 damage, which is much weaker. Is this not the case iin KoTS?

 

[Rechan]

Well the key thing is perhaps not who boosts the minions but who is boosted by the minions. Most regular kobolds get +1 to hit for each other kobold near the target so kobold minions not only get to attack, but the get to give other kobolds +4 to for each group That's huge. It's not about getting support it's about giving it.

Now if the kobold minions are the same as goblin minions despite the lack of goblin synergy then that shoots down my theory. However according to the stats we have, kobold minions only do 2 damage, which is much weaker. Is this not the case iin KoTS?

Don't forget that the Wyrmpriest's temp HP also help out minions, according to Chris Sims.

So we also have an example of a regular monster giving minions a SERIOUS boost.

 

[ZetaStriker]

I think the damage is what matters most with Zombies, as they're meant to be encountered alongside the standard, grabbing zombies, which will likely allow them to deal their 5 damage more often than the goblins or skeletons deal their 4.

As for grabbing minions... it wouldn't work. Who cares how hard it is to escape a grab when you can make the thing crumble into dust with one blow? I admit, this is a metagame idea, and if the player's don't know what type is grabbing them it could have an effect. But the point remains.

EDIT: And did we actually get explicit confirmation on the Wyrmpriest's interaction with minions? Because of the 'one hit kills' clause under HP, I assumed that even with 5 temporary hit points, 1 point of damage could still kill them.

 

[Rechan]

As for grabbing minions... it wouldn't work. Who cares how hard it is to escape a grab when you can make the thing crumble into dust with one blow? I admit, this is a metagame idea, and if the player's don't know what type is grabbing them it could have an effect. But the point remains.

Because 1) When you're immobilized, everyone has CA on you = +2 to hit. 2) To maintain a hold is a minor action, so the grabbing zombie can wail on you.

EDIT: And did we actually get explicit confirmation on the Wyrmpriest's interaction with minions? Because of the 'one hit kills' clause under HP, I assumed that even with 5 temporary hit points, 1 point of damage could still kill them.

Yes, we did, post 6 in this thread. The 5 temp HP go on top of the 1 HP of a minion, so if a minion is hit for 4 damage, it doesn't die.

 

[Stalker0]

Because 1) When you're immobilized, everyone has CA on you = +2 to hit.

Unless this has changed since DDXP, immobilized just stops your movement, your enemies don't get CA against you.

 

[Spatula]

Well the key thing is perhaps not who boosts the minions but who is boosted by the minions. Most regular kobolds get +1 to hit for each other kobold near the target so kobold minions not only get to attack, but the get to give other kobolds +4 to for each group That's huge. It's not about getting support it's about giving it.

Yep, I agree.

Now if the kobold minions are the same as goblin minions despite the lack of goblin synergy then that shoots down my theory. However according to the stats we have, kobold minions only do 2 damage, which is much weaker. Is this not the case iin KoTS?

Kobold minions have +4 hit, 4 dmg, melee & ranged (range 10/20). The only goblin minons in KotS are "cutters" who are +5 hit, 4 dmg +1 with combat advantage. No ranged attack or specials other than Goblin Tactics (shift when a melee attack misses). Defenses for the cutter are slightly better (16 vs the kobold's 15). Huh, just noticed the kobold minions have a -2 to all defenses when not adjacent to another kobold minion.

I think the damage is what matters most with Zombies, as they're meant to be encountered alongside the standard, grabbing zombies, which will likely allow them to deal their 5 damage more often than the goblins or skeletons deal their 4.

That doesn't help a zombie minion any more than it would help a skeleton minion - they both get the same benefit from attacking a grabbed target. Both could be expected to be encountered with regular zombies. And by the encounter design guidelines, you could replace two zombie rotters (76 xp) with three decrepit skeletons (75 xp) and it should be just as challenging an encounter, making the skeletons clearly the more effective choice.

EDIT: And did we actually get explicit confirmation on the Wyrmpriest's interaction with minions? Because of the 'one hit kills' clause under HP, I assumed that even with 5 temporary hit points, 1 point of damage could still kill them.

There is no "one hit kills" clause on minions. They all have 1 hp with a "missed attacks don't hurt them" clause.

 

[Simplicity]

Am I misremembering? I thought zombies were supposed to have some ability to do extra damage to grabbed opponents...

 

[Rechan]

Am I misremembering? I thought zombies were supposed to have some ability to do extra damage to grabbed opponents...

Zombie yes. ZOmbie minion, apparently not.

 

[Dormain1]

Originally posted by Rechan
Zombie yes. ZOmbie minion, apparently not.

Unless its example of editing due to lack of space

but they wouldn't do that would they

As is players will see Zombies and say

"Woot bonus xp! Charge"