Zombie Minions are too weak

[Xeviat]

So, day 1 with 4E. I've been reading through "Keep on the Shadowfell" so that I can start running it next week, and I've discovered something disconcerting about the Zombie Minions (Zombie Rotters):

Zombie Rotter (Level 3 Minion)
Initiative -2
Senses Perception -1; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fort 13, Ref 9, Will 10
Immune Disease, poison
Speed 4
--------
Slam (standard, at will)
+6 vs. AC; 5 damage

Now compare this to a 1st level minion ...

Goblin Cutter (Level 1 Minion)
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +1; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 16; Fort 12, Ref 14, Will 11
Speed 6; see also goblin tactics
--------
Short sword (standard; at-will)
+5 vs. AC; 4 damage (5 damage if the goblin has combat advantage against the enemy)
Goblin Tactics (immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack; at will)
The goblin shifts 1 square

My issue is that the goblin has 5 better initiative, 2 better perception, 3 better AC, 5 better Ref, 1 better Will, 2 better speed, and a special ability, while the zombie has 1 better fort, 1 better to hit, and 1 better damage in most circumstances.

If you were to scale up the goblin to 3rd level, based on the Legion Devils, you would get the following:

Advanced Goblin Cutter (Level 3 Minion)
Initiative +4
Senses Perception +2; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 18; Fort 14, Ref 16, Will 13
Speed 6; see also goblin tactics
--------
Short sword (standard; at-will)
+7 vs. AC; 4 damage (5 damage if the goblin has combat advantage against the enemy)
Goblin Tactics (immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack; at will)
The goblin shifts 1 square

And now it is far better than the zombie. I feel this zombie minion needs to be reduced to 1st level and be given a special ability, perhaps the Zombie Grab ability that the normal zombie has (to make them better at attacking en mass).

What do you all think?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm going to agree. Zombies should never come in ones and twos. Or threes and fours. Or even ten. Zombies should be, singularly, very weak. But then again...

...zombies come in hordes

So giving them bonuses to reflect the whole "OH GOD THERE'S TOO MANY OF THEM" is, in my opinion, a great idea.

 

[Belphanior]

Zombies also have immunities and can see in the pitch dark. That's got to count for something.

In case anyone thinks poison and disease immunities are irrelevant, I'd like to point out that's a 3.x mindset. Damage types in 4e appear to be more evenly balanced out. Dragonborn, for instance, might deal poison damage.

 

[Xeviat]

I think all zombies should have the hold ability, and they should all deal bonus damage to held targets. So they all try to grab until one succeeds, and the others pummel (it's nice to know that, although initiating a grab is a standard action, maintaining it is only a minor action. So you can grab and then pummel if you keep winning the check).

 

[arghost]

compare it to the lvl 2 brute variant; they are basically the same (same defences, same to-hit, etc.). The minion seems to be a minion-version of the brute. So I would peg them at lvl 2 and reduce their xp accordingly.

 

[DonAdam]

They also have an extra vulnerability to turn undead.

Numbers definitely seem off.

 

[Baumi]

I think the Bonus in Attack and Damage is very important, especially for a Minion. But the main balance point might be the size ... we don't know yet if small creatures receive penalties to certain actions (like Grappling).

 

[Raith5]

They also have an extra vulnerability to turn undead.

Numbers definitely seem off.

And interestingly, I think that they will never be pushed 5 squares because that only happens on a hit which would also destroy the 1 hp minions. So technically they dont get turned they get vaporised!

 

[LowSpine]

So, day 1 with 4E. I've been reading through "Keep on the Shadowfell" so that I can start running it next week, and I've discovered something disconcerting about the Zombie Minions (Zombie Rotters):

Zombie Rotter (Level 3 Minion)
Initiative -2
Senses Perception -1; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fort 13, Ref 9, Will 10
Immune Disease, poison
Speed 4
--------
Slam (standard, at will)
+6 vs. AC; 5 damage


I feel this zombie minion needs to be reduced to 1st level and be given a special ability, perhaps the Zombie Grab ability that the normal zombie has (to make them better at attacking en mass).

What do you all think?

I thought that they should have the zombie grab ability. Plus I think they should have some sort of mob ability/bonus.

I think giving all zombies Zombie Grab and also -1 to attempt to escape the grab per adjacent zombie would make them truly scary.

Zombie Horde. When trying to escape a Zombie Grab the character suffers -1 per adjacent zombie to use their Acrobatics Skill.

 

[Heselbine]

Zombie minions are great. I ran a game where I had an unnumbered horde of them attacking an inn. Can you imagine running a game in 3e with 20+ zombies at 1st level? I don't think so.