Zombies! New Dungeoncraft article up

[ThirdWizard]

May I suggest these? They retail for $10.

Personally, I want to see orc hordes with that many bodies.

Oohhhh... one of my players is terrified of zombies. I don't know why exactly, but that's just the thing I need right there. Perfect for shambling hordes wanting to eat those delectable PC brains.

 

[JoeGKushner]

This is what I want out of zombies.

If I get this at the expense of wyvern zombies, then good!

YMMV.

(Also read post 119.)

You want one guy surrounded by zombies who then tears through them like tissue paper? 3.5 handles that pretty well. (Heck, that's a great 360 game but it certainly doesn't prove a point about zombies being anything other then line 'em up and knock 'em down monsters.)

 

[Andor]

Oohhhh... one of my players is terrified of zombies. I don't know why exactly, but that's just the thing I need right there. Perfect for shambling hordes wanting to eat those delectable PC brains.

Even better. They also have a bag of glow in the dark zombies. C'mon. You know you want to see 100 radioactive zombies shambling after the PCs.

 

[frankthedm]

You want one guy surrounded by zombies who then tears through them like tissue paper? 3.5 handles that pretty well. (Heck, that's a great 360 game but it certainly doesn't prove a point about zombies being anything other then line 'em up and knock 'em down monsters.)

For a good deal of that game, that many zombies is stilll darn hard to fight through. Eventually that many zombies are tissue paper schlubs, but is still cool to see them horde in on you.

If D&D PC's have Save and Load options, reaching level 50 would be easy for them as well.

Even better. They also have a bag of glow in the dark zombies. C'mon. You know you want to see 100 radioactive zombies shambling after the PCs.

They also have bags o' zombie dogs {small dog] and zombie babes, each carrying a severed head.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You want one guy surrounded by zombies who then tears through them like tissue paper? 3.5 handles that pretty well. (Heck, that's a great 360 game but it certainly doesn't prove a point about zombies being anything other then line 'em up and knock 'em down monsters.)

The main thing about zombies in that game is that they are challenging at first and then as you get more powerful there are more and more and more. In 3.5, you're supposed to make zombies bigger and bigger to make them more powerful, and with the power curve, then lots and lots of zombies just won't cut it, no matter how many you have.

In the game, there is a point where zombies are mostly ignorable (unless you're trying to get people through them to safety - grrrr...) but it takes a while before you can ignore scores of them. And with 4e's emphasis on lots of monsters in combat monsters, I can see 40 zombies vs. 4 PCs being possible. Beautiful. I hope, I hope, I hope!

Plus, a human commoner zombie in 3.5 has a +2 grapple. A +2! What kind of grapple and eat brains ability is that? Totally worthless. They mentioned grappling as well as slamming, so I'm hopeful. Now, if only they had some kind of coup de grace ability if enough of them pin you... but I doubt that one.

That's what I want.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You know, I just had a thought. It's pure guesswork--I have not seen any more of the monster creation rules than any of you--but I think it's interesting.

What if templates are no longer necessary at all?

Here's what I mean. Templates were useful because they allowed you to create a wide variety of a certain type of creature that warranted wide variety. A 10th-level elven fighter who becomes a vampire should be different than a 13th-level halfling wizard who becomes one. For at least some people, a wyvern zombie and an ogre zombie should be dramaticaly different.

But we have no idea what monster creation in general is like in 4E. If it's simple and fast enough, if a monster can be whipped up from scratch in 15 to 20 minutes, then there's no need for templates. (And let's be honest, some of the most complex templates took almost that long to apply.) If a DM doesn't like the "medium zombie" presented in the rules, he can whip up a new one, giving it different attacks, or wings, or whatever.

Again, I could be way off base here, but I thought it was something worth considering.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Try it with a Wyvern and a Minotaur. Same size, same hit dice. Totally different zombies.

Both are in the SRD, and they don't have the same hit dice. Even with that, I wouldn't say they're totally different zombies.

Size and Type: Same for both creatures.
Hit Dice: The wyvern's got 13 HP on the minotaur thanks to his 2 extra HD.
Speed: The Minotaur moves 30 ft per round, the Wyvern moves 20 feet per round, because actually trying to use Clumsy flight in battle isn't worth the trouble.
Armor Class: The Wyvern has 4 more natural armor than the Minotaur.
Attacks: Slam or gore at +10 for 1d8+5 for the Minotaur, Slam at +11 for 2d6+7 from the Wyvern. (Note that this damage appears to be incorrect -- it should be 1d8+5, just like the Minotaur's, going by the template's provided information. Hurrah for biffed stat blocks in core.) The Minotaur also has a greataxe listed, but eh, zombies with weapons? Lamesauce incarnate. The Minotaur also has 5 feet more reach.
Special Attacks: None for both.
Special Qualities: Exactly the same for both.
Saves: The Wyvern has +1 to its base Will save.
Abilities: Strength is 21 for both creatures, Dex is 10 for the Wyvern and 8 for the Minotaur. The other 4 are the same for both.
Skills: None for both.
Feats: Just Toughness for both.
Alignment: Same for both creatures.

So the Wyvern has a bit more HP, a bit more AC (unless you do, for some bizarre reason, go the equipment route for the Minotaur, in which case the ACs end up about the same), hits slightly more often for slightly more damage (maybe), has slightly better saves, and has one ability with a modifier one higher. It can fly in story mode, but it has slightly less reach and moves slightly slower in battle.

That to me does not say "totally different zombies." Rather it says "Zombie advanced 2 hit dice past other zombie," especially because the key remaining difference between the two -- flight -- can't actually be used in battle because of the ludicrous hassle involved. It further illustrates the point I made in the first place -- we took two completely different monsters, applied the template, and ended up with Mindless Bruiser 1 and Mindless Bruiser 2. Had I actually had to build these rather than pull the stat blocks from the SRD, I'd have been kicking myself in the teeth by the middle of the Wyvern's. It's really not worth the time, especially for a mook.

Oh, and Mouse, remember that we know Death Knight is a template -- it's a significantly more PC-type monster, but it at least tells us that templates aren't getting booted entirely.

 

[Rechan]

t.

But we have no idea what monster creation in general is like in 4E. If it's simple and fast enough, if a monster can be whipped up from scratch in 15 to 20 minutes, then there's no need for templates. (And let's be honest, some of the most complex templates took almost that long to apply.) If a DM doesn't like the "medium zombie" presented in the rules, he can whip up a new one, giving it different attacks, or wings, or whatever.

The thing I liked about templates was that it gave you an idea as to what the CR of the new monster was. "I slap on breath weapon, some stat adjustments and energy resistence (Half-dragon), it's CR +2.

If it's just a table of abilities to drop on a monster, then that might not really give us much to go on. Unless each ability has a '+n XP to monster'.

 

[JoeGKushner]

.. but eh, zombies with weapons? Lamesauce incarnate.

Some comparissions I've heard make mention of 'movie' zombies.

Now perhaps I missed it but Night of the Living Dead, the girl zombie uses a spade.

Dawn of the Dead, Bub uses a gun.

Land of the Dead, the undead are using guns.

And those are just the ones I think of off the top of my head.

 

[JoeGKushner]

You know, I just had a thought. It's pure guesswork--I have not seen any more of the monster creation rules than any of you--but I think it's interesting.

What if templates are no longer necessary at all?

Here's what I mean. Templates were useful because they allowed you to create a wide variety of a certain type of creature that warranted wide variety. A 10th-level elven fighter who becomes a vampire should be different than a 13th-level halfling wizard who becomes one. For at least some people, a wyvern zombie and an ogre zombie should be dramaticaly different.

But we have no idea what monster creation in general is like in 4E. If it's simple and fast enough, if a monster can be whipped up from scratch in 15 to 20 minutes, then there's no need for templates. (And let's be honest, some of the most complex templates took almost that long to apply.) If a DM doesn't like the "medium zombie" presented in the rules, he can whip up a new one, giving it different attacks, or wings, or whatever.

Again, I could be way off base here, but I thought it was something worth considering.

And if this is the case, what do we need a monster manual for?

If it is this... simple, why do we need multiple stat blocks for golems, giants, humanoids, etc... ?