systems without levels or hp's

LostSoul · Apr 19, 2005

jeffh said:
Like a lot of people who criticize hit points, you have this backwards. If he has 200 hit points and you only did 10 points of damage, that's how you know you didn't hit him in a vital spot.

Your particular example is especially unreasonable, being a perfect example of a coup de grace situation. If you use the wrong mechanics for it, of course you'll get silly results; garbage in, garbage out.

You could argue that there should be no need for a "rule" like the coup de grace; something like having your head in a guillotine should be able to work just using the basic system. No need to come up with a rule that breaks the basic system.

I don't think that argument is terribly valid; hit points are cool, work well in the game, and coup de grace is a nice way of dealing with special circumstances. But you could have a more elegant system in a perfect world.

GlassJaw · Apr 19, 2005

I knew this question would come:

Well if you knew that you should have posted all 4 the first time!

The "I never feel pain until I am unconscious" syndrome.

Yeah, this is a major issue for me as well. I suppose that's why I like Shadowrun.

The "rugged old sage syndrome" (even relatively sedentary classes get rather tough due to hp progression. Star Wars handles this point adroitly by taking vitality progression away from NPC classes.)

Other systems have rules for handling "mooks" as well, like MnM. Heck, even Skull & Bones has a cool system for mooks as well.

Speaking of S&B, I really like its hit point system. The PC's have hp's but they regain them very quickly: 1 point/Con mod/minute (or something like that). Of course there is very little healing magic but it really gives the feel that losing hp's is not "physical" damage. Only when you run out of hp's does it get serious - you start losing points of Con after that. If you drop to half your Con, you fall unconscious and also run the risk of getting a serious injury.

DMH · Apr 19, 2005

Henry said:
Alternity used all three - classes, levels, AND hit points; hit points, however, were three separate totals - stun, wounds, and mortal damage.

Levels are easy to remove and there is a section in the GMG on just that. The professions are not as limiting as d20's classes as the non-FX skills are open to all. And you forgot the 4th (unloved) durability rating- fatigue.

For those who want to look at a system using Alternity that drops skill points and uses a training system, I suggest that you read the 3rd issue of the Apocolypse Post found on this page http://www.alternityrpg.net/downloads.php

John did great work there and I never create a setting without it in mind.

JamesDJarvis · Apr 19, 2005

GlassJaw said:
Chaosium Call of Cthulhu (does it have hp's? I forget)

Yes, all the BRP games have Hit Points they just don't automatically keep climbing as a character develops.

sword-dancer · Apr 19, 2005

Thanee said:
Midgard (altho, it has both levels and hit points, they are done in a way, very much unlike D&D), but the problem is, it is available in german only.

Bye
Thanee

I`ll second that.
Arcane Cdex would be another one,mybe it would be translated.

Particle_Man · Apr 20, 2005

re: Old king arthur game...do you mean Pendragon?

re: no hp/level game...have you considered HARP?

Staffan · Apr 20, 2005

The Swedish game Eon has neither levels (it's skill-based) nor hit points. Instead of hit points, it has a number of different damage tracks: Trauma (for the kind of injuries that can kill you), Pain (for injuries that mostly hurt but aren't lethal), and Blood Loss. When you get hit with a weapon, you use a moderately complex process to turn the weapon damage into a number of points of Trauma, Pain and Bleeding (the latter of which leads to Blood Loss). When you get injured enough, you have to make Survival rolls (using a difficulty based on the Trauma and Blood Loss you've taken) or die, and if those succeed, making Shock rolls (based on all three damage tracks) or go unconscious. In addition, there are a few occasions where you can get specific injuries, damaging internal organs, breaking bones, or in extreme cases amputating limbs. Those are optional rules, though.

skinnydwarf · Apr 20, 2005

GlassJaw said:
I've come to the conclusion that levels and hp's are the two things that I'm not a huge fan of in d20/D&D. I like the d20 system but I've become interested more and more in systems (d20 or not) that don't have hp's or levels.

Can anyone recommend some systems that don't use levels or hp's?

Here are a few that I'm familiar with:

Shadowrun
Star Wars d6
Mutants & Masterminds
DC Heroes
Chaosium Call of Cthulhu (does it have hp's? I forget)

Skyrealms of Jorune (3rd edition, I don't know about the others, I could never get them

) was a skill-based classless system, although it had HPs. However they were the same as y our stamina and never went up. Though you could get "professions" to start out with, which were basically skill packages, from what I recall. Man, I miss that game. The combat system was so cool. When you got hit, there were different levels of damage (light, medium, critical wounds) based on weapon type (handy dandy chart) and then your wounds would get applied to your skills. (You would get minuses to your skills/attacks equal to your wounds). So it wasn't like D&D where you have 1 HP but you are perfectly fine. If you got wounded, you felt it and had better start re-evaluating your options, because things just got harder.

And don't get me started on how awesome the world was. Best RPG world ever.

Maybe I'll try and get my parents to mail me my copy from home (I foolishly didn't bring it with me to my apartment).

You can still find this gem on ebay. I heartily recommend it!

tetsujin28 · Apr 20, 2005

Psion said:
That depends on what you are calling an HP. It has a damage rating that, if exceeded, leaves you unconscious or dying. But LOTS of systems have that sort of arrangement.

They're called hit points right on the sheet. I wouldn't call Hero or GURPS "hit point free", either.

Now, if the OP meant "hit points that increase as you get more powerful", then CoC definitely, and Hero or GURPS maybe (it depends on where you put your experience).

As far as fantasy RPGs go, Runequest is the original "no levels, no classes" game. Easily the game I've had the best experiences with, too, as I've been playing it since RQ I. Along with other posters, RQ II is my favourite edition.

Psion · Apr 20, 2005

tetsujin28 said:
They're called hit points right on the sheet.

As has already pointed out. My point was "yeah it has hit points, though perhaps not what you mean by hit points, but lots of games do it that way."

systems without levels or hp's

LostSoul

Adventurer

GlassJaw

Hero

DMH

First Post

JamesDJarvis

First Post

sword-dancer

Explorer

Particle_Man

Explorer

Staffan

Legend

skinnydwarf

Explorer

tetsujin28

First Post

Psion

Adventurer

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