Dragonmarked

Rystil Arden said:

Hmm...but it does allow them to get more than full attack worth of attacks in a round, right? Like they attack once, then leap, then full attack. Or worse, if they Quicken it with Quicken Dragonmark, they full attack, then leap, then full attack again, or perhaps leap with a Swift action and full attack, then leap with a move action and full attack, then leap with a move action again and full attack.

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They jump as a move action then attack as a full action at the end of it. Only one sequence of attacks. The ability only works w/ swift leap, which is always a move action (Quicken mark will allow you to jump your normal distance than still have a full round of actions left so you could jump, swift jump, then full attack, but still only one attack). The name "Swift leap" is a bit of a misnomer as it only allows the jump to used quicker than normal, not as a swift action.

Rystil Arden said:

Also note that the ability to jump in and always get a full attack on enemies that try to move out to prevent it and then often stop the enemy from themselves getting a full attack with the not-yet-approved feat is rather abusive, and since both are for Orien, this is a combo you're likely to see if the feat is allowed.

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Still have to look at that combo.

stonegod said:

They jump as a move action then attack as a full action at the end of it. Only one sequence of attacks. The ability only works w/ swift leap, which is always a move action (Quicken mark will allow you to jump your normal distance than still have a full round of actions left so you could jump, swift jump, then full attack, but still only one attack). The name "Swift leap" is a bit of a misnomer as it only allows the jump to used quicker than normal, not as a swift action.

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I fail to see what prevents me from Swift Leaping as a Move Action and then doing the Full Attack granted by this ability (with no stated action, mind!), then Swift Leaping as a Move Action again (I have two after all) and full attacking again. If you add abilities like the Marshal's or some MIC items that give you an extra Move Action, that's a third full attack. With Belt of Battle, which I hope we never allow, you could make four full attacks.

Rystil Arden said:

I fail to see what prevents me from Swift Leaping as a Move Action and then doing the Full Attack granted by this ability (with no stated action, mind!), then Swift Leaping as a Move Action again (I have two after all) and full attacking again. If you add abilities like the Marshal's or some MIC items that give you an extra Move Action, that's a third full attack. With Belt of Battle, which I hope we never allow, you could make four full attacks.

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I don't have the book in front of me, but that is an easy one to kibosh:

Orien's Fury: As a full round action, you may combine Swift leap with a full attack action and the end of the swift leap movement.

But let me have a double look at the book first.

Rystil Arden said:

I fail to see what prevents me from Swift Leaping as a Move Action and then doing the Full Attack granted by this ability (with no stated action, mind!)

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There is no note in the book. So I have officially proposed the fix I suggested above.

See I hadnt even thought of that. I just want to be a mobility based fighter-type. I was planning on knight levels for Geeve's sake. Not scout at all. But I suppose this is for others as well not just myself. Any word on Orien battle stride. I do not understnad whats wrong with limiting it.

I know you want to compare it to dash but the fact is dash is an inherently weak feat. I mean scout and barbarian get +10 as a class feature . +5 is just for the most part not worth it. It IS the ability to break up a bite claw claw AND +4 on all of those things, but i dunno i feel like i earned it for ,at that point, being so invested in my house. But isuppose you dont want a lot of Orien scions floating about. Has anyone playtested it. i rarely got to use the abilities it offered because often id get hit all the time anyway. I t was helpful against wolves and wargs, but very rarely do NPCs use trip or disarm unless they're monks

The 5 feet isn't the issue--the comparison to Dash is flawed. Even if it gave you no feet of movement and broke full attacks, it would be broken. Let's consider and I'll even ignore the special movement but just take into account the ability to break full attacks--Orien Scion versus bad-tempered Grizzly Bear. Orien Scion has AC 21. Grizzly Bear uses Claw/Claw/Bite for 17.05 average damage. Now give her Battle Stride. Damage goes down to 11.6545. That's the same result as if you got +3 to all types of AC.

It gets even more powerful if you have some sort of Miss Chance (say the one provided by the handy Blink ability from the PrC, for instance).

Let's say our Orien Scion is facing off against a tough opponent. An Old Red Dragon. She has 32 AC now. Without the feat or Blink, she takes 2d8+12/2d8+12/4d6+6/2d6+6/2d6+6/2d8+6 damage. It totals up to 97.85 damage. And she perishes as she should against a CR 20 Dragon. Her Blink ability will halve that to 48.925. Okay, without the feat, that's not too bad. But watch this!

With the feat and no Blink, she gets 87.724 damage. This time, it's equivalent to a +2 AC bonus from the no-feat and no-Blink situation. But here's where it gets absurd. With the feat and Blink, the damage expectation is 18.005 damage. When you combined the two, it reduces the damage by nearly a factor of 3 from the initial Blink. In fact, the damage is only 18.4% of the starting damage. That's about halfway between the benefit of gaining +15 and +16 AC! Zounds! Compare this to other feats

ok... wow i knew it was good but i hadnt crunched the numbers. What about just the other half the +4 against all forcing me to move stuff or doing that plus adding some sort of way to scale it based on type of mark. I dunno if Id take it or not yet i am just trying to open up options. like maybe adding 10 or 20 feet of movement once per day for lesser marks and for greater marks twice. If this seems suitable I will officially propose it as a feat.

Moggthegob said:

ok... wow i knew it was good but i hadnt crunched the numbers. What about just the other half the +4 against all forcing me to move stuff or doing that plus adding some sort of way to scale it based on type of mark. I dunno if Id take it or not yet i am just trying to open up options. like maybe adding 10 or 20 feet of movement once per day for lesser marks and for greater marks twice. If this seems suitable I will officially propose it as a feat.

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Yeah, even I hadn't realised it would go that high--I figured maybe it would reduce it down to 25%, but not all the way to 18%. And it's a weird 18% distribution with a very very good chance of taking no damage or 21 damage, but then as you go along, you might take a ton.

I'd totally go for something like +4 to all those checks and then consume any of your Orien Dragonmark uses for the day as a Swift Action to add +30 to movement speed for the current round. Still a strong one situationally if a GM uses those manoeuvres considering the massive bonuses that cancel out Improved X, but it doesn't have any weird consequences like the above.

You'd have to make it out of the Dragon's threat range with that 5ft move, but I understand what you are getting at. Being able to move away from a full attack is quite powerful.

The suggestion you make is already a feat, called Swiftness of Orien in the Players Guide. Swift action and use of dragonmark = +x to move for 1 round. (x is dependant on the strength of the mark used).

Erekose13 said:

You'd have to make it out of the Dragon's threat range with that 5ft move, but I understand what you are getting at. Being able to move away from a full attack is quite powerful.

The suggestion you make is already a feat, called Swiftness of Orien in the Players Guide. Swift action and use of dragonmark = +x to move for 1 round. (x is dependant on the strength of the mark used).

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WotC designers, you rascals, always taking my ideas (okay, this time they came up with it first, but my Dweomereater existed way before Spellthief and is eerily similar, though with more playable mechanics).

As to the threat range, yep I knew that, which is why I prefaced by saying I would ignore the movement and just assume the feat gets you out of the threat range. I realised this morning also that I miscalculated the AC equivalent versus the dragon--I actually gave you a number that was *too low* when I said +15 or +16. Without doing the math again, the miscalculation I made was substantial enough that it should probably be a solid +17.