TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

Please defend the Tomb of Horrors!

Hey Col,

There is a thread under the General RPG Discussion forum that rates your S1 mod. There seem to be a few naysayers there that believe it can only be won by cheating or extreme (perhaps Lotto winning) luck.

Please smite them with a story of how some non-metagaming players took down Acererak and his crypt by virtue of their skill. Thanks for writing this one, too. No one has surpassed this one in terms of originality or terror. (As I mentioned in that thread, the mod also improves the gaming skills of those that survive.)

Thanks,

AoA

Angel of Adventure said:

Hey Col,

There is a thread under the General RPG Discussion forum that rates your S1 mod. There seem to be a few naysayers there that believe it can only be won by cheating or extreme (perhaps Lotto winning) luck.

Please smite them with a story of how some non-metagaming players took down Acererak and his crypt by virtue of their skill. Thanks for writing this one, too. No one has surpassed this one in terms of originality or terror. (As I mentioned in that thread, the mod also improves the gaming skills of those that survive.)

Thanks,

AoA

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Well Amigo...

What I say about nay-sayers is, pluck 'em! They can express their opinion, and so what? I don't need to defend anything. Some hundreds of thousands of PCs have adventured in the ToH, and not many have made it successfully, so it is most demanding of real skill.

You can quote me from this post, if you like, for we ran the module as a tournament at a Spring or Autumn Revel, or a Winter Fantasy con here back in the day. There were, IIRR, eight teams, and one of them absolutely obliterated the demi-lich by using the crown, putting it on his head, and touching the "wrong end" of the scepter to it. Russ Stambaugh was the DM for that team, and he asked me if that would work. I was astounded at how clever the players had been, said so, and gave them the top spot for their innovation. Again, as I recall, several of the other eight teams made the cut, destroyed Acecerak. those were veteran dungeoneers, of curse.

Ernie playing Tenser didn't go for the situation and cleared out. Rob playing Robilar made it to the end, grabbed all the loot, and didn't bother fighting the demi-lich--not much profit in that by his estimation, not with all the treasure in his bag of holding. I have run a party of local gamers through the ToH, and they made it with the loss of a couple of the PCs. It was many years ago, so I do not recall player names and details--way too many gaming sessions under my belt in the 33 years I have been a GM for such recollections...

Cheers,
Gary

Dude, thanks!

Seriously, for that speedy reply! I hate to hear that something as challenging, thoughtful, and fun as S1 would be discounted as a mere lottery's chance of survival. Thanks for this mod and all your contributions to gaming. While S1 isn't your only great one, it will always stand out in my mind as being my favorite.

Thanks again,

AoA

Angel of Adventure said:

Seriously, for that speedy reply! I hate to hear that something as challenging, thoughtful, and fun as S1 would be discounted as a mere lottery's chance of survival. Thanks for this mod and all your contributions to gaming. While S1 isn't your only great one, it will always stand out in my mind as being my favorite.

Thanks again,

AoA

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Welcome, Amigo

As a matter of fact there are always whiners...and sometimes I do that too...so it's nothing over which to get one's undies in a bunch

When the complaints come from really able authors and/or players I pay attention. Otherwise, such railings can be discounted as personal preferences...or simply sour grapes

Cheers,
Gary

Sour grapes. We made it all the way thru with no PC deaths (tho I won't say the same about NPCs, hirelings, henchmen, conjured critters, et al.), but at the finale couldn't add it up correctly. As lead mage I put up an anti-magic shell and we called it a draw. ::sigh::

I must note that we olde fartes were grounded in wargamer strategies and tactical analyses, much of which provided the mental orientation needed to survive old-school adventures. By contrast, those who prefer roleplaying in taproom settings over dungeoneering, and who expect critters to simply engage and fight to the death, may not have the training or experience to deal with real challenges.

Frank Mentzer said:

Sour grapes. We made it all the way thru with no PC deaths (tho I won't say the same about NPCs, hirelings, henchmen, conjured critters, et al.), but at the finale couldn't add it up correctly. As lead mage I put up an anti-magic shell and we called it a draw. ::sigh::

I must note that we olde fartes were grounded in wargamer strategies and tactical analyses, much of which provided the mental orientation needed to survive old-school adventures. By contrast, those who prefer roleplaying in taproom settings over dungeoneering, and who expect critters to simply engage and fight to the death, may not have the training or experience to deal with real challenges.

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Hmmmm...wow...I never thought of it that way, Frank. Personally, I got my start in the world of gaming by being turned on to Avalon Hill wargames (my first two were Midway and Luftwaffe). In thinking back on how I run encounters that feature monsters with weapons and the ability to use tactics (orcs and goblins leap immediately to mind), I DO end up using a lot of tactics reminiscent of my Squad Leader playing days....and more often than not, it seems to flummox the players. As great a set of role-players and problem-solvers I have, they seem incapable of recognizing the value of an orderly retreat in the face of overwhelming forces.

The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun was done with as much melodrama and pathos as I could muster for a rotter such as I envisaged that oneto be. A few DMs really appreciate the mood of the module, its underlying implications. I specifically selected the unusual art to enhance the "different" aspect of the work. I say all that for your benefit when perusing the material.

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Purple worms, writhing violet, veins of mauve, curses against the light, double inverted pyramids... purple robes, unrusted iron, a horn, flame with no heat... cold, urge to understand, bitter cold, purple and black, barely perceptible movement... needle-rock... a black, many-rayed sun...

Yes, that is creepy stuff indeed. "I thought we were here to fight norkers...?"

As for the "underlying implications," I'm tempted to turn that around for "implications of the underlying," meaning hints to prod the players to search for the Undertemple. The statue in the shrine could be interpreted as indicating that the treasure in the place is at Tharizdun's feet, in some spherical form, and that the party is currently only at chest-level, where the held bowl contains mineral deposits (representing the nearby cavern). There are a few other references to going deeper as well.

Other "underlying implications"... The barely perceptible movement might indicate that Tharizdun is yet alive, as do the references to slumber and binding rather than destruction. (All made very clear in the Gord books later.) Violet is the last visible color in the spectrum, purple is the color of kings... The black sun and dimming of light indicate eclipses... Cold also relates to the absence of the sun... One thought is that T's binding will last for 333 eclipses (the number of bronze rungs of the shaft to the Undertemple; each one must be eclipsed to gain the 'temple)... A more sinister thought is that T will extinguish the sun when he is loosed, and only those who venerate him will be able to see/survive afterwards. Or maybe his release would only trigger an ice age...

Just my thoughts. Any of them anything close to what you had in mind? Not that I want to ask someone to explain a joke. (Speaking of which: "Teldroll Storis"??? Shouldn't he have been a bard?)

Something that always bothered me a bit about this one was that PC's needed to take the role of T's priests and act out his rites to gain the treasure. I suppose this is a simple enough question -- the treasure is there, what are you willing to do to get it? But I didn't see the potential for characters to be clever, yet true to their own allegiances, and win the big prize. It seems to rule out success by groups containing paladins, good clerics, etc. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that point as well.

Thanks for producing such a thought-provoking work!

Col_Pladoh said:

Well Amigo...

What I say about nay-sayers is, pluck 'em! They can express their opinion, and so what? I don't need to defend anything. Some hundreds of thousands of PCs have adventured in the ToH, and not many have made it successfully, so it is most demanding of real skill.

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I love this reply. It really says all that needs to be said.

Col_Pladoh said:

Welcome, Amigo

As a matter of fact there are always whiners...and sometimes I do that too...so it's nothing over which to get one's undies in a bunch

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All whiners and wieners should be dispatched to the Hall of Many Panes there to learn the error of their ways!!

Jon

NojBad said:

All whiners and wieners should be dispatched to the Hall of Many Panes there to learn the error of their ways!!

Jon

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"Whiners and Wieners"??? Brilliant!!!

::runs off to file copyright paperwork on a hot new RPG::