L4W Discussion Thread V

Son of Meepo said:

That agrees with my interpretation. The default rules for a weapon property is that they must be wielded to be effective, but only has to be used for the attack if specifically mentioned. It's why Staff of Ruin received errata.

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Just a quick note, [MENTION=87106]MetaVoid[/MENTION] (and others as I think sg gets it fairly regularly) - stonegod & Karinsdad aren't judges here, just in LEB. Kalidrev hasn't been around for a few years either.

"The current judges are covaithe, garyh, Lord Sessadore, Ozymandias79, TwoHeadsBarking, renau1g, H.M. Gimlord, Iron Sky, and Luinnar." <- Charter. I know JoeNotCharles and ScorpiusRisk are also, they're noted as inactive, but that's likely just not updated.

And on a completely unrelated matter, can I request a judge for Murder at Midnight?

http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=322935

Since the judges have been summoned, I'd like to chirp in that Rift in a Bag is still lacking a judge

Maybe next time I'm confused for a L4W judge, I'll just apply officially. Solve the problem.

Just a word that I will be off all the week-end and back on Tuesday only. Good week-end everyone.

Enjoy the long weekend Vel.

MetaVoid said:

Judge summoning: [MENTION=54810]renau1g[/MENTION], [MENTION=36973]stonegod[/MENTION], [MENTION=84005]Kalidrev[/MENTION], [MENTION=79620]Ozymandias79[/MENTION], [MENTION=44459]Luinnar[/MENTION], [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], [MENTION=82251]TwoHeadsBarking[/MENTION]

OOC: Rules Question: Prime Shot dagger states that character does 1 more damage if no allies are closer to the enemy then he is. No "if you attack with this weapon", or "melee attacks" or "ranged attacks" or whatever, it's static property. Question is, would that apply then to all character attacks even if he attacks through separate imlement? I stress: there is no "when you attack with this weapon" wording

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Hmmm. Interesting question.

I would think that properties of a weapon only work for attacks made through the item (regardless of whether the weapon is used as a weapon or as an implement) unless the property explicitly states otherwise. So if you used a different implement, you wouldn't get the +1 damage from the dagger.

As support for this, I looked at the PHB:

"Property: A holy avenger deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage when the power you use to make the attack has the radiant keyword."

"When you’re wielding a holy avenger, all your radiant powers deal extra damage when you use the weapon to deliver them."

The property does not state that the PC has to be wielding or attacking with the weapon, but the rules quote indicates that the weapon must be used regardless.


A slightly weaker rule from the errata tends to support this as well:

"When you use a magic version of the weapon as an implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only with weapon attacks."

This seems to indicate that one can use these features, but implies that it is only if the weapon is being used as an implement. Which in turn would indicate that they could not be used if some other implement were used instead.

I was looking at the WotC site and they had the same question. Apparently in the AV there's a rule "Adventurer's Vault adds a rule that makes it so magic weapon properties only affect attacks made with the weapon that has the property. Weapon properties actually need language specifying that they can apply to attacks made with other weapons before they'll do so."

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Now that Renau1g mentioned AV, I looked for the quote. It says:

adventurer's vault said:

Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon. You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon

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[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], the wording on holy avenger states that attacks through holy avenger gain the bonus, it's not relevant in this case.

[MENTION=54810]renau1g[/MENTION], I took notes from the thread you linked. It seems that one of them asked CS and got the answer it stacks.

(stars denote various posters, this in not from single post, bold parts are my emphasis)

QUESTION: Prime Shot Dagger in off-hand. Does the damage bonus apply to all melee attacks, or just to those made with the Prime Shot Dagger? By my reading, seems like it would be all melee attacks. It doesn't seem to specify "with this weapon." However, that seems too good to be true.

ANSWERS:
Any attacks for lack of more precision.Prime Short Weapon's Property: You deal +1 damage if no ally is closer to the target than you are.

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I've asked CS on it before, and the prime shot bonus will work whether in main hand or offhand, and what's more is that they stack because the extra damage isn't considered a bonus.

**

Since the weapons property doesn't specify ranged damage rolls or ranged weapon damage rolls, then if, say, a dagger were given Prime Shot, then any power used through the dagger would gain the +1 damage to damage rolls. That means a rogue using a ranged power or melee power, a monk using his implement powers, even a sorceror casting dragonfrost, or even burning spray or even blazing starfall. No matter the nature of the power or attack, the bonus applies as long as the Prime Shot dagger is used (and the conditions for the property are met).

**
It doesn't need to specify; Adventurer's Vault adds a rule that makes it so magic weapon properties only affect attacks made with the weapon that has the property. Weapon properties actually need language specifying that they can apply to attacks made with other weapons before they'll do so.

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[MENTION=5656]Someone[/MENTION], I looked a bit through old Character Builder - there are properties that specify explicitely "when attack delivered with this weapon", "you use melee weapon attack", "attack through this implement" etc...and there are those that don't.

Since the rule in AV seems to affect only weapons, what would happen with same wording on ...totem for example...or any other implement.

Rain of Hammers Ki focus has property: when you reduce the enemy to 0 hp, all enemies adjacent to you take 2+enhancement bonus...there in no mention of using said ki focus and it seems it should work.

Now, it's only +1 damage, it won't make or break the character, but it is confusing.

Can someone ask CS about this? It seems someone did, but it may be before new rules...

MetaVoid said:

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], the wording on holy avenger states that attacks through holy avenger gain the bonus, it's not relevant in this case.

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Reread it. It does not state that. It's totally relevant.

Property: A holy avenger deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage when the power you use to make the attack has the radiant keyword.

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Nowhere here does it state "attacks through the Holy Avenger".

This says absolutely nothing about how the weapon is used.

It's says that "the item does x".

It doesn't say "when used to attack as a weapon, the item does x"

This is the wording that you yourself stated was not in the Prime Shot dagger, bolded below. That wording is not in the Holy Avenger either.

MetaVoid said:

OOC: Rules Question: Prime Shot dagger states that character does 1 more damage if no allies are closer to the enemy then he is. No "if you attack with this weapon", or "melee attacks" or "ranged attacks" or whatever, it's static property. Question is, would that apply then to all character attacks even if he attacks through separate imlement? I stress: there is no "when you attack with this weapon" wording

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You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that the dagger does not have that type of wording and then say that the Holy Avenger does when neither of them have that wording.


In any case, Someone quoted the explicit Property AV rule that revised the vague PHB rule. When combined with the errata rule, it pretty much gives the answer.

Many weapons have properties that provide a constant benefit. To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached.

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Again like Holy Avenger, this doesn't state anything about how the weapon is used, as a weapon or as an implement. It just states that the property only affects the weapon. The property does not affect any other item because it only affects the weapon (regardless of whether the weapoin is used as a weapon or as an implement).

When you use a magic version of the weapon as an implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only with weapon attacks.

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The errata rule then explicitly extends the magic of the weapon to implement attacks. It does NOT explicitly extend the magic of the weapon attack to implements that are not also the weapon. This is the rule that does not exist.


There is no ambiguity here.