Paladin / Warlock Faith conflict query

By not allowing this multiclass at my table.

neogod22 said:

except they get their powers from a god,

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I'm not entirely sure where in 5e you're getting this bit from.

dco said:

You can not be a paladin without an oath, at level 3 you swear your final oath.

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Yep. as per the class description, you are already committed to the path of the paladin, but not yet sworn to it before level 3.

But then you can be a paladin without a god, order, the oath can be sworn with the dead as the witness, or perhaps the air.

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Indeed. Swearing an Oath of Vengeance on the dead is pretty classic Paladin.

The class allows any option and surely when the power comes only from an oath it gets dumbed down, if a simple oath gives you divine powers all intelligent creatures of the world could have those divine powers or at least lay on hands.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "dumbed down"? The mechanics, and strictures are the same whatever the Oath is sworn to.
If simple worship gives you divine powers all intelligent creatures of the world could have those divine powers, or at least turn undead.
Its like claiming that any creature able to carry a tune should be a Bard, any creature that gets angry would be a barbarian, or any creature able to read should be a wizard.

Anyone can make a promise. Not everyone has the force of will and eloquence to swear an oath that echoes throughout the firmament and empowers you to bend the very laws of creation to fulfil it.

Warlocks and paladins are good at different things. In particular warlocks have a lot more stealth/sneaky options than paladins (except for the Oath of Treachery). So the god might want a shining champion (but need a sneaky one) and his/her/its fey, fiendish, or celestial flunky might fill in the gap via levels in warlock.

As for "gods vs. oaths", the PHB is pretty clear that not every smuck who swears an oath becomes a paladin (or else why isn't every civil servant an oath of the crown paladin? And, if you have ever been to a bar, there is always someone who drinks too much and swears mighty oaths to stupidity, and let's not get started on oaths of teenage love....seriously, if swearing oaths were all it takes every D&D campaign world would be overflowing with paladins, and that just isn't the case). So, much like the warlock where all kinds of fools try to make deals with scary cosmic things and become lunch (or worse), the question of "why are these guys successful when most people who try fail?" lies just under the surface. To my mind, the key is that something is impressed enough with the oath or the aspiring paladin to give the paladin power. If that something can give warlock powers too, good for it (and so far the only god with stats had a type of fiend, not god, so I suspect most gods are fiends or celestials, either of whom can give out warlock stuff too). If whoever takes the oath gets unimpressed (much like a warlock patron who no longer happy with the warlock), then that is what minions are for.

dco said:

The class allows any option and surely when the power comes only from an oath it gets dumbed down, if a simple oath gives you divine powers all intelligent creatures of the world could have those divine powers or at least lay on hands.

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The thing is, a paladin's oath isn't a "simple" one. By definition, it's a super-special magical one that endows the paladin with supernatural powers.

However, if you want to rule that it *is* a simple oath and write the setting fiction accordingly, that's kinda a neat idea. So people who vehemently swear they're going to 'lose a few pounds this year' suddenly find themselves Paladins of Health. You could have whole cadres of new paladins after each New Year's celebration --let's call them the New Year's Peers -- whose haphazard liquor or hangover-fueled oath-swearing turn them into inadvertent holy knights.

It gets even better w/all 'intelligent creatures'...

Dogs could swear the Oath of Treats and get things like Puppy Eyes - use your Channel Divinity to compel a target to give you food unless a WIS save is made.

Cats could swear the Oath of No and get Herding Cats - use your Channel Divinity to automatically resist any command or compulsion.

I am tempted to run with this.

Cap'n Kobold said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "dumbed down"? The mechanics, and strictures are the same whatever the Oath is sworn to.
If simple worship gives you divine powers all intelligent creatures of the world could have those divine powers, or at least turn undead.
Its like claiming that any creature able to carry a tune should be a Bard, any creature that gets angry would be a barbarian, or any creature able to read should be a wizard.

Anyone can make a promise. Not everyone has the force of will and eloquence to swear an oath that echoes throughout the firmament and empowers you to bend the very laws of creation to fulfil it.

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The mechanics are the same, the rest no. It's not the same to spend the life training and devoting your soul to your god who gives you divine powers than make an oath and gain divine powers.

Worship alone doesn't give you divine powers, the God chooses you and gives you the powers and expects something from you. The current class gain the powers from a simple oath, not sure why a soldier who makes an oath could not have divine powers in that kind of world, or a couple, or any other individual swearing something, it should be something usual.

No. A bard learns how to use music or songs to manipulate arcane energies present in the world. The wizard learns to use those arcane energies in other ways. The sorcerer is a source of arcane energy because of reasons. The Warlock gains power from an entity, etc. Very different situations compared to an individual swearing something and applying some dedication to his vows.

The rules don't say anything about the paladin's oath reaching the cosmos and changing the reality.

dco said:

The rules don't say anything about the paladin's oath reaching the cosmos and changing the reality.

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Except that's *exactly* what paladin oaths do. They result in *paladins*. That counts as changing reality.

Now if what you're claiming was true and 'simple oaths' create paladins, then 5e settings would have a *lot* of them. Like, they'd be neck-deep in paladins.

Simple question: are the 5e published materials positively overrun with paladins?

I think how the oaths work in terms of where the power comes from is purposely designed to be table dependent: someone swears an oath, black box (the table dependent part) happens, and viola, you have a paladin. We can argue about the elegance and implications of a given table's black box, but I don't think anyone will find any evidence that one table's black box is more "right" than any others. This is one of those "rulings over rules" things.

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lowkey13 said:

A pestilence of paladins.

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I believe the correct term is a "self-righteousness of paladins".

Unless it's a "vacation bible school of paladins".

Mallus said:

Except that's *exactly* what paladin oaths do. They result in *paladins*. That counts as changing reality.

Now if what you're claiming was true and 'simple oaths' create paladins, then 5e settings would have a *lot* of them. Like, they'd be neck-deep in paladins.

Simple question: are the 5e published materials positively overrun with paladins?

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That will be in the setting you've created for your game. However the rules only say you need an oath to gain divine powers and that you lose them if you don't follow your vows. When people bring the rules to negate a potential faith conflict like the OP could have I don't understand why they bring later their own vision beyond the rules to defend what the rules say.