ExploderWizard
Hero
Oh yeah, never gonna forget feats, just remember to save one so your FIGHTER can use PLATE ARMOR in keeping with all that theme and fluff.
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Discussing 4e Subsystems: Retraining
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Oh yeah, never gonna forget feats, just remember to save one so your FIGHTER can use PLATE ARMOR in keeping with all that theme and fluff.
Pssst.... 4e fighters are better off without PLATE ARMOR (no armor penalty to their Athletics checks).Oh yeah, never gonna forget feats, just remember to save one so your FIGHTER can use PLATE ARMOR in keeping with all that theme and fluff.
Oh yeah, never gonna forget feats, just remember to save one so your FIGHTER can use PLATE ARMOR in keeping with all that theme and fluff.
*giggle* You've got me there.
Still - what else are you going to spend those feats on?
I will agree with this with one caveat....paladin's not getting athletics.
He's in the thick of things just like everyone else, and it strange that there is a strength based paladin build but NO str skills on their list!!
My Paladin's going to snag Athletics by cross-training in Warlord (though I mainly doing that for the extra healing).
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
Indeed, never!
Ktulu
First Post
This is the Karate Kid theory of applied skills. The Crane kick will defend you against Johnny, but against Barnes you will fail unless you learn to sweep the leg!!
I don't actually see it as the user losing the power, rather than he's come across a more effective technique (see: every anime involving fighting) for battling enemies.
A clear, though comical, example is the Power Rangers. Each season they gained new powers, new attacks, new weapons... Often, they never reverted to using older abilities/weapons.
Ktulu
I don't actually see it as the user losing the power, rather than he's come across a more effective technique (see: every anime involving fighting) for battling enemies.
A clear, though comical, example is the Power Rangers. Each season they gained new powers, new attacks, new weapons... Often, they never reverted to using older abilities/weapons.
Ktulu
The "its not consistent or logical for you to know X then forget X when you level up" argument fails to convince me for these two simple reasons:
1. Its never logical to suddenly learn or suddenly forget something upon leveling up, because leveling up happens instantly and learning skills takes time. This insight, while accurate, is something you basically have to get over if you want to play D&D. So I find bringing it up to be kind of trite.
2. No ruleset can ever prohibit all forms of verisimilitude-breaking behavior. Its not possible, because rulebooks are small and the player creativity is huge. As such, it is at least partially the responsibility of the DM and the players not to intentionally break verisimilitude.
So while I feel kind of bothered by the idea of High-Climbin' Carl, the best mountain climber in the land, retraining his feats and forgetting how to climb mountains (without in game justification), well, who's fault is that? The game, for failing to forbid this? Or Carl's player?
Given the many advantages of retraining as a game element, the many logical and reasonable ways it can be used, and the fact that Carl's player had to intentionally select to break verisimilitude in this way, I blame him.
The only thing that bugs me about retraining is that I don't really like the idea of retraining heroic feats into paragon feats. I kind of wish that they all lived in their own little boxes. Because if they don't, then eventually, as more feats come out, we're going to start abandoning wholesale all the heroic tier feats in exchange for paragon, and then again in exchange for epic, since there will be options for feats that are similar, but better. I don't like the idea of material becoming obsolete like that as you level up.
1. Its never logical to suddenly learn or suddenly forget something upon leveling up, because leveling up happens instantly and learning skills takes time. This insight, while accurate, is something you basically have to get over if you want to play D&D. So I find bringing it up to be kind of trite.
2. No ruleset can ever prohibit all forms of verisimilitude-breaking behavior. Its not possible, because rulebooks are small and the player creativity is huge. As such, it is at least partially the responsibility of the DM and the players not to intentionally break verisimilitude.
So while I feel kind of bothered by the idea of High-Climbin' Carl, the best mountain climber in the land, retraining his feats and forgetting how to climb mountains (without in game justification), well, who's fault is that? The game, for failing to forbid this? Or Carl's player?
Given the many advantages of retraining as a game element, the many logical and reasonable ways it can be used, and the fact that Carl's player had to intentionally select to break verisimilitude in this way, I blame him.
The only thing that bugs me about retraining is that I don't really like the idea of retraining heroic feats into paragon feats. I kind of wish that they all lived in their own little boxes. Because if they don't, then eventually, as more feats come out, we're going to start abandoning wholesale all the heroic tier feats in exchange for paragon, and then again in exchange for epic, since there will be options for feats that are similar, but better. I don't like the idea of material becoming obsolete like that as you level up.
This is mostly true, except for certain skills like Perception or Stealth, which directly factor into the combat power of your class. Perception, for example, can grant you an extra standard action in certain combats.
But yeah, for most skills its purely flavor.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
I admit that I'm naturally resistant to retraining rules, in any game. It's one of the few things that pushes any "sim trouble" buttons that I might possess. 
However, I find the 4E retraining rules far more palatable than what you might see elsewhere.
For one thing, that half level bonus to skills totally changes the meaning of what a trained skill represents. Adventurers are good at all skills. The trained ones are the ones where they spend a lot of practice, attention, and other effort. I can't see how anyone that could accept the half level bonus to all skills could also reject the retraining of skills. It sees to me that the former is more intrusive to representing the continuity of the campaign than the latter. ("So really? Your wizard spent six months and sea, gained two levels, and got actually got better at everything?)
I would have a lot more trouble in 3.*, with someone moving all ranks from one skill to another.
Feats and Powers are a little harder to justify, but even here it is easy to think of the basic attack and base class abilities as standard, with the feats and powers being highly polished moves. Maybe the rogue that swaps out Sly Flourish for something else still knows perfectly well how to do Sly Flourish--well enough, that he also knows that he has neglected to do the necessary practice, and would fall flat on his face if he tried it.
However, I find the 4E retraining rules far more palatable than what you might see elsewhere. For one thing, that half level bonus to skills totally changes the meaning of what a trained skill represents. Adventurers are good at all skills. The trained ones are the ones where they spend a lot of practice, attention, and other effort. I can't see how anyone that could accept the half level bonus to all skills could also reject the retraining of skills. It sees to me that the former is more intrusive to representing the continuity of the campaign than the latter. ("So really? Your wizard spent six months and sea, gained two levels, and got actually got better at everything?)
I would have a lot more trouble in 3.*, with someone moving all ranks from one skill to another.
Feats and Powers are a little harder to justify, but even here it is easy to think of the basic attack and base class abilities as standard, with the feats and powers being highly polished moves. Maybe the rogue that swaps out Sly Flourish for something else still knows perfectly well how to do Sly Flourish--well enough, that he also knows that he has neglected to do the necessary practice, and would fall flat on his face if he tried it.
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