I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[wingsandsword]

For those that keep using the "Cure Wands" excuse, I'm telling ya, get rid of magic item shops and control what magic items PCs can get their hands on and it solves all kinds of problems. From a DM perspective, there's actually no negatives to doing so.

Sure, PCs could still craft them, but that's much less commonplace.

Unless, of course, you are running a high-magic setting like Eberron, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, or Mystara where the trade in magic items, especially lower-end items like healing wands and potions, low-end magic weapons, or scrolls, is logical and common if not outright expected.

Some D&D worlds are low magic, some are high-magic. For some DMing styles and worlds there are no negatives to a lack of trade in magic items. When you are settings that involves magically powered sailing ships that sail between worlds, a planar metropolis where anybody in the multiverse can visit, there is an entire PC race of mass produced sentient golems, or it's well established that entire nations are ruled by large orders of archmages that use many apprentices to mass-produce basic low-end items, you kind of expect magic items to be more available.

For basic low-fantasy in the styles of Tolkien or Howard, yeah, low magic item levels with no item shops and every single item is hand selected by the DM as treasure are fine, but that's not all of the spectrum of D&D.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I apologize in advance if I missed it, but I haven't found a response to this excellent post, that elegantly summarizes what many feel is wrong with the HS.

The only answer I have found doesn't address at all the "Schrödinger" issue.

I think the reason why we haven't tried to counteract that particular argument of Dausuul's is because we all agree that he's correct. His particular case is a very good example why the Healing Surge mechanic as it stands is not perfect. But the reason why we don't care about his point is because those of us on the HS side I think pretty much agree that EVERY facet of the 'hit point' system in every edition of the game doesn't actually make any sense. And thus... since we accept that hit points are nothing more than a GAME convention put in place to give us a win/lose situation in the 'game' part of 'roleplaying game' (described to us as a kind of injury simulation although in actuality does a piss poor job of simulating it)... we overlook the Schrödinger issue just like we've overlooked all the other stupid parts of hit points through the years.

My big question for the rest of you is how you're actually able to think of hit point combat as being 'real' enough that it's 'healing surges' that are the straw that breaks the camel's back? Because as I pointed out upthread... since any character can actually get HIT AND DAMAGED three to fifteen times over the course of a fight... that's three to fifteen REAL INJURIES that a character is sustaining during that fight, and yet the fact they are still able to continue fighting doesn't break the reality for you? You're able to accept that... but it's the 'healing surge' mechanic where you draw the line?

 

[NewJeffCT]

Unless, of course, you are running a high-magic setting like Eberron, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, or Mystara where the trade in magic items, especially lower-end items like healing wands and potions, low-end magic weapons, or scrolls, is logical and common if not outright expected.

Some D&D worlds are low magic, some are high-magic. For some DMing styles and worlds there are no negatives to a lack of trade in magic items. When you are settings that involves magically powered sailing ships that sail between worlds, a planar metropolis where anybody in the multiverse can visit, there is an entire PC race of mass produced sentient golems, or it's well established that entire nations are ruled by large orders of archmages that use many apprentices to mass-produce basic low-end items, you kind of expect magic items to be more available.

For basic low-fantasy in the styles of Tolkien or Howard, yeah, low magic item levels with no item shops and every single item is hand selected by the DM as treasure are fine, but that's not all of the spectrum of D&D.

A wand of cure light wounds is also something that should be fairly easy to craft for a cleric in 3E/3.5E (not sure about Pathfinder, but I'd imagine it's similar). So, if the players said, "We want to stop for long enough to craft a wand of Cure Light Wounds" - does the DM say "no" to that request because it's a low magic world?

 

[Naszir]

Ok, I'm not picking on Naszir, here, it's just the most recent example of what I'm addressing.


Second wind causes the character to heal themself of wounds.

The 4e phb quotes I've provided slightly upthread seem to disagree with our common sense view of it, and state (pretty clearly, actually) that it's closing of wounds.


Now, I agree with everyone else who is claiming that it makes more sense if healing surges represent adrenaline or whatever else, rather than actually healing wounds....but that is not what it is spelled out as in the 4e phb.

I'm asking: Can anyone provide an actual WotC source that says what healing surges represent other than the closing of wounds/healing?



So, there's the challenge...is it just people making sense of it in their own way, or does WotC ever actually say anywhere that it represents something other than healing?

Hey no problem. I don't feel picked on.

Unfortunately I couldn't find what you are talking about with the closing of wounds in regards to Second Wind.

From what I can tell healing surges mean many different things. Spending a healing surge and using Second Wind gives you a "burst of vitality". pg. 291 PHB.

Getting Healing Word cast on your character and spending a healing surge "helps you mend your wounds" - though that is just a flavor description. Healing as stated on pg. 293 PHB doesn't say a thing about "closing wounds". The flavor descriptions on the powers will talk about this but again that is just flavor.

 

[Dausuul]

The only sources of non-magical healing when you're unconscious is from a warlord or some application of the Heal skill (which conceptually I don't think many people would have an issue with). Or rolling a 20 on a death save, which while possible is exceedingly rare - or at least, I've never seen it happen.

...Or spending any number of healing surges after a short rest. This is specifically called out in the rules as something you can do:

After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you like outside combat.

In the glossary entry for "Knocking Creatures Unconscious," there is a specific mention of unconscious creatures benefiting from a short rest, so unconsciousness does not prevent resting. And you can certainly spend healing surges while unconscious.

 

[Imaro]

My big question for the rest of you is how you're actually able to think of hit point combat as being 'real' enough that it's 'healing surges' that are the straw that breaks the camel's back? Because as I pointed out upthread... since any character can actually get HIT AND DAMAGED three to fifteen times over the course of a fight... that's three to fifteen REAL INJURIES that a character is sustaining during that fight, and yet the fact they are still able to continue fighting doesn't break the reality for you? You're able to accept that... but it's the 'healing surge' mechanic where you draw the line?

See now this to me, especially when dealing with minor cuts, bruises, etc., but even with more serious injuries seems like a justification for adrenaline, willpower, etc., kicking in to keep you going. You're still going to go down when you've hit your limit (unlike with HS where your limit is artificially increased)... but right now you're fighting through the pain and weariness to survive and that plus the fact that you've trained to do this allows you to ignore the minor injuries and pain. It's sorta like the same way a professional football player has to ignore minor injuries and still play at or close to the top of his game. It's only when you've been whittled down to your limit with minor injuries or suffer a major injury that you fall and can't go on.

See, IMO, this is already cinematic combat and is why HS seem, IMO, to push characters towards the superheroic scale. They don't just fight through injuries and pain anymore... now they can shake off (heal) major wounds, unconsciousness and even being on the brink of death... without magic or help... and give them 5 mins to catch their breath and they are in tip top shape for the next battle. That doesn't feel like adrenaline kicking in, or catching your breath... that's Wolverine's healing factor. And yes, I know healing surges eventually run out (though with the length of combat it's hard to get there in any one 4 hour gaming session), but then again even Logan's mutant ability has it's limits on how much it can repair in a certain amount of time... with that said it's still very much a super power.

 

[Imaro]

A wand of cure light wounds is also something that should be fairly easy to craft for a cleric in 3E/3.5E (not sure about Pathfinder, but I'd imagine it's similar). So, if the players said, "We want to stop for long enough to craft a wand of Cure Light Wounds" - does the DM say "no" to that request because it's a low magic world?

Why would a DM allow crafting feats in a low-magic world. It seems this would be something that is available to only the most powerful (greatly increase the level necessary to take the feats) and/or specially trained (prestige class) spellcasters. I don't think a world in which PC's have easy access to crafting at low levels could really be considered a low-magic game.

 

[wedgeski]

I do wish that 4E had incorporated a Condition Track or at least *something* which reflected the longer-term effects of being beaten into unconsciousness or healed from the brink of death, but having said that, I love Healing Surges. I don't have a single problem with what they represent or how they're used.

 

[BryonD]

I'm perfectly content with abstract HP and I strongly dislike Healing Surges.

I think the difference is presented in the subtle shift from here:

Even though HP was always meant to be an abstract gestalt of different factors--body, vitality, endurance, even luck, etc--...

To here:

At least as long as HP remain HP--that is, a gestalt of different factors, an abstraction.

Yes, it was always an abstract. But it was understood that physical damage was the benchmark of that abstraction. Setting magic aside, healing was tied to ideas of normal healing of physical damage. Yes, it was a loose tie, but it was there. And along with the idea that some HP represents "luck", "fate", raw skill at avoiding damage, whatever, it was simply accepted that recovery of this "luck" scaled consistently with the primary idea of physical healing.

And that had a benefit because, at least, it kept the abstract part of the healing concept on the same side of the ledger as the abstract side of the HP concept.

But now it has gone away from being an abstraction that is benchmarked against physical damage and healing and into being a free floating abstraction. There is no connection to physical. And so you get a situation in which two warriors fighting with weapons end with both or either of them either dead or able to shrug off any and all damage with no meaningful recovery period or medical aid.
When you move away from an abstraction built on a physical idea and to a pure abstraction, no damage is physical at all. No damage may ever be dealt that con not be abstracted away in a full absence of anything resembling actual healing.

Now, you add magic into the system. As long as magic healing still scales with this abstraction, it still works good enough. It doesn't really matter if 15 points of healing is closing a wound or restoring luck. So that in itself does not change anything.

It has been pointed out that the wand'o'heals creates the exact same game result, so what difference does it make. My first response to that it is not correct to assume this happens in everyone's game, so it certainly isn't correct to assume that designing a new game expecting everyone to accept it is ok. But, even when a wand is used in rapid succession, at least there is an implicit narrative justification for the healing. Using "magic" to channel power and heal wounds is a fundamental idea of how a world works. Joe the fighter can close his wounds through willpower is not. Certainly you can invent a world in which everyone has a form of regeneration. And that is cool. But the default concept of a fantasy world does not resemble this idea.

Yes, you can think of specific examples in fantasy that perfectly fit a surge. Princess Bride is probably one of the best. And yet, imagine how miserably anti-climatic it would have been if everyone had already been "surging" four times a day throughout the movie prior to that.

You asked for solutions. I have an option in my game that provides exactly this kind of heroic moment, and would readily be recognizable as a form of "surge" but with two key changes.

First, it requires an action point, which is a much more precious resource. The effect is not something that happens routinely, but only at desperate times. Second, it provides temporary hit points, not healing. These temp HP go away within 10 minutes and deal an extra 50% damage when they do. You can heroically fight on, but you still need to heal, and that much more for having exerted yourself beyond your normal means.

Another option is a wound/vitality system. These have there own issues and I generally don't bother with them. But if you must have surges, W/V can keep the surges fully in the abstract side of things.

 

[BryonD]

Want to stand on the podium on the Tour de France with a broken collarbone, it has been done. Want to spend several days walking around with a broken leg before getting any treatment, people have. Want to break your neck in the FA Cup Final and walk up the steps to get your winner's medal, that's fine too. Anything as complicated as injuries and people's reactions to them that's being resolved with a system as abstract as hit points is going to leave queries.

How many of those people found that because they had temporarily overcome their injury, they suddenly no longer needed any medical treatment for that injury ever?