I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
WheresMyD20 said:
Sure, but it did try to emulate Tolkein, Leiber, Howard, Moorcrock...
And there were tortles and dire tiger mounts and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks....
D&D 5E The Next Generation
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Sure, but it did try to emulate Tolkein, Leiber, Howard, Moorcrock...
And there were tortles and dire tiger mounts and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks....
Melkor
Explorer
D&D became the success it has been over three plus decades by emulating a certain genre. Obviously, to become so popular, it has done something right.
I would say the anecdotal evidence is that 4E didn't succeed as well as hoped because it began to move away from that.
Telling a large portion of the audience of D&D to "go away," makes me wonder why you don't take your own advice and find another game that suits your tastes if the classic tropes of D&D do not do so?
I would say the anecdotal evidence is that 4E didn't succeed as well as hoped because it began to move away from that.
Telling a large portion of the audience of D&D to "go away," makes me wonder why you don't take your own advice and find another game that suits your tastes if the classic tropes of D&D do not do so?
Yeah, it's a pretty egregious thing to say. "Hey, you who have been playing this game for 30 years - well, I'm just past puberty and I've decided you should bugger off and give the game to me! I have, like, a $5 allowance and everything! Your stuff is MINE now!"
Why not find your own game, if my one isn't to your tastes? Why should I be forced to stop playing the game I've supported for 30 years because you want to turn it into something else?
(All this addressed at hypothetical person, of course. Even the OP wasn't that bad!)
WheresMyD20
First Post
It did in the '70's and '80's and '90's, I don't know why it would be any different today.
Tolkein, Leiber, Howard, Moorcrock weren't fads of the "'70s, and '80s, and '90s".
So, since there were tortles and dire tiger mounts in a module, the game was letting you emulate He-Man and TMNT campaigns?
I see people here saying that you should be able to emulate Harry Potter in D&D. That's more than using a single creature or magic item. That's asking for the game rules to allow you to support an entire specific setting.
R
RHGreen
Guest
I haven't read most of the books that D&D is based on, even though I'm old enough.
When I was growing up it was Battle Of The Planets, He-Man, Transformers, Ulysses, Cities Of Gold, Thundercats, Akira, etc, etc.
These were the things I loved, but there is a massive quality difference between this cartoon pap and the kind of books that people bring up when talking about influences.
Cowboy Bebop? Give me a break. If they even used Thundercats as a way of designing 5E I'd drop it faster than a piece of used toilet paper the day after Vindaloo night.
I'm not familiar with Manga/Anime based RPGs, but I know they exist and they sound more of what you are looking for. That isn't a fob off, as it might sound (and even if it was, it's still more polite than yours), it just makes sense.
When I was growing up it was Battle Of The Planets, He-Man, Transformers, Ulysses, Cities Of Gold, Thundercats, Akira, etc, etc.
These were the things I loved, but there is a massive quality difference between this cartoon pap and the kind of books that people bring up when talking about influences.
Cowboy Bebop? Give me a break. If they even used Thundercats as a way of designing 5E I'd drop it faster than a piece of used toilet paper the day after Vindaloo night.
I'm not familiar with Manga/Anime based RPGs, but I know they exist and they sound more of what you are looking for. That isn't a fob off, as it might sound (and even if it was, it's still more polite than yours), it just makes sense.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think it is possible that the game's tent is big enough for everyone. Honestly isn't that REALLY what the whole OGL thing was all about? The ability for any 3PP to come along and drop a bunch of material onto D&D and (to some variable level of compatibility) have it become part of the game or at least trade off the common core aspects that D&D sensu stricto has with other fantasy?
In a sense there's no need for WotC to do anything here. 3e/d20 exist. They will never stop existing as long as anyone cares to keep playing d20 based games. 5e could be a 'better d20' in a sense, and maybe it will be (and in a sense 4e is too, though GSL seems to have given people the willies).
I think if 5e is going to succeed it will have to eventually do both, support the existing styles of play and sensibilities, and allow for other stuff to enter the mix. I think what the OP may not appreciate is the extent to which D&D is truly an amalgamation. Nothing enters D&D intact. It all gets mushed together and reinterpreted and repurposed. Harry Potter might inspire a setting or some NPCs in an adventure, or even some new spell casting mechanics (though honestly I don't think there was anything exceptional about the Potter-verses magic). It isn't likely AT ALL that you'll ever be able to run Hogwarts and play out HP novels in D&D (IP issues aside). It just doesn't work that way. You can't EXACTLY make Aragorn, Gandalf, Elric, or the Gray Mouser in D&D either. It will let you build a character that captures the essence of those figures.
The game is all about your own creativity building on what exists. This is why D&D was never written to emulate exactly any of the stories that inspired it. Vancian magic isn't Dying Earth magic, it is just similar. D&D is a toolkit for your own imagination, not a comic book you read passively. All you younger people are VERY welcome to add your own new material to the mix, just don't expect it to look much like the original source material by the time we're all done with it.
In a sense there's no need for WotC to do anything here. 3e/d20 exist. They will never stop existing as long as anyone cares to keep playing d20 based games. 5e could be a 'better d20' in a sense, and maybe it will be (and in a sense 4e is too, though GSL seems to have given people the willies).
I think if 5e is going to succeed it will have to eventually do both, support the existing styles of play and sensibilities, and allow for other stuff to enter the mix. I think what the OP may not appreciate is the extent to which D&D is truly an amalgamation. Nothing enters D&D intact. It all gets mushed together and reinterpreted and repurposed. Harry Potter might inspire a setting or some NPCs in an adventure, or even some new spell casting mechanics (though honestly I don't think there was anything exceptional about the Potter-verses magic). It isn't likely AT ALL that you'll ever be able to run Hogwarts and play out HP novels in D&D (IP issues aside). It just doesn't work that way. You can't EXACTLY make Aragorn, Gandalf, Elric, or the Gray Mouser in D&D either. It will let you build a character that captures the essence of those figures.
The game is all about your own creativity building on what exists. This is why D&D was never written to emulate exactly any of the stories that inspired it. Vancian magic isn't Dying Earth magic, it is just similar. D&D is a toolkit for your own imagination, not a comic book you read passively. All you younger people are VERY welcome to add your own new material to the mix, just don't expect it to look much like the original source material by the time we're all done with it.
Nellisir
Hero
I've been playing D&D for about 25 years, and I've read a pretty large amount of fantasy fiction, but Vance hasn't ever appealed to me. The early Gray Mouser & Faf. stories are great, but the later ones get weird. Ditto Elric. There is a -lot- of "modern" fantasy that does just fine with D&D; at least as well as those books do. D&D doesn't reproduce Vance's work exactly, just as it doesn't reproduce Leiber or Zelazny. I suspect you need just as many tweaks to adapt it to one of those as you would to adapt it to Harry Potter.
Now I may be a winged sand dragon that lost a duel with an ancient Egyptian conjurer and had to wait until 28 years ago to bind with the soul of a baby, but dropping to old to cater to the young doesn't sound all that smart. I know some of the references references of D&D's history but I know some of the present and near past that could go it with.
D&D has to grow somewhat with the trends of today. Now not everything matches up well. Saiyans might not fit but a lightly armored warrior with an aggressive spirit who can channel this mentality in at-will fire blasts. Or teenagers with attitude whose spacely patron gifts her with magic armor, weapons, and magical beasts. Or strange women who can fight expertly with no training and can take the blunt force of thrown trees and falling several stories face-first like they were mere punches. Or spellcasters who cast via willpower and practice over memorization and preparation of arcane formula.
But throwing away tradition, embrace it and the new (the new that fits).
D&D has to grow somewhat with the trends of today. Now not everything matches up well. Saiyans might not fit but a lightly armored warrior with an aggressive spirit who can channel this mentality in at-will fire blasts. Or teenagers with attitude whose spacely patron gifts her with magic armor, weapons, and magical beasts. Or strange women who can fight expertly with no training and can take the blunt force of thrown trees and falling several stories face-first like they were mere punches. Or spellcasters who cast via willpower and practice over memorization and preparation of arcane formula.
But throwing away tradition, embrace it and the new (the new that fits).
Where do people get the crazy idea that DnD hasn't changed and been influenced by the tropes of it's time.
Why is there a Monk in DnD? Answer: The series Kung-Fu was popular (and several other Martial Arts movies).
When the series Shogun came out the community got Oriental Adventures book.
Star Wars and other space ship games were popular; so, Spelljammer answered the fix.
Mutant turtles? I've got humanoid Hippos, Elephants, and Cat-people as player races. Take that Thunder Cats.
What is the big sword of Ravenloft module? It looks awfully like a Sun Sword that Thundar the Barbarian uses.
Psyloche of the X-men with her psychic knife? We have several classes that re-create this ability.
Then there are things DnD did to itself. Drow ranger with two weapon style is popular then everyone needs rules to allow this and to have a pet animal to accompany them.
Tiefling and Dragonborn were not 'new' ideas in DnD. Tiefling were around for several editions before 4e and many people had been playing them. Races of the Dragon was a popular book and it was thought that Kobold would again become a player race but Dragonborn combined several feats and half-dragon classes and choices into one race.
And please don't have me point how many Monty Python, Lewis Carroll and other influences there have been on adventures and monsters.
Look at the campaign suggestions for d20 Modern. You'll see influence of Angel and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Undead and Vampires as NPC and PCs are all through the game books of DnD because of Anne Rice and Stephanie Myer (along with many other authors with vampires that don't glitter). Monte Cook even wrote a d20 World of Darkness game book.
Does the past matter? Yes. The past became classic because it has an appeal.
Does the present matter? Yes. I may like the idea of Lovecraft and Call of Cthulhu but Delta Green is more popular with me because it is closer to me in setting (I have troubles relating 1920s setting to most players).
Personally, I'm happy that Fantasy is moving away from Tolkein Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. The genre is very wide and for 20 years it got stuck in a rut where you got the same Tolkein refried mush despite which author that you went to.
I was happy to see someone reference the Hunger Games for a Ranger archetype in the Ranger Schtick thread (not that I'm a fan of Catmiss but my thoughts on the characters of that novel is not relevant to this post). It showed how new influences are speaking to people.
I know many of my friends are big into Harry Dresden. If they want to use that as their starting point for adventure then I'm more than happy to play that style of game.
In church, we say, no one has their name on a pew.
All are welcome to DnD and we've got 30+ years of writing rules to make it so.
Why is there a Monk in DnD? Answer: The series Kung-Fu was popular (and several other Martial Arts movies).
When the series Shogun came out the community got Oriental Adventures book.
Star Wars and other space ship games were popular; so, Spelljammer answered the fix.
Mutant turtles? I've got humanoid Hippos, Elephants, and Cat-people as player races. Take that Thunder Cats.
What is the big sword of Ravenloft module? It looks awfully like a Sun Sword that Thundar the Barbarian uses.
Psyloche of the X-men with her psychic knife? We have several classes that re-create this ability.
Then there are things DnD did to itself. Drow ranger with two weapon style is popular then everyone needs rules to allow this and to have a pet animal to accompany them.
Tiefling and Dragonborn were not 'new' ideas in DnD. Tiefling were around for several editions before 4e and many people had been playing them. Races of the Dragon was a popular book and it was thought that Kobold would again become a player race but Dragonborn combined several feats and half-dragon classes and choices into one race.
And please don't have me point how many Monty Python, Lewis Carroll and other influences there have been on adventures and monsters.
Look at the campaign suggestions for d20 Modern. You'll see influence of Angel and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Undead and Vampires as NPC and PCs are all through the game books of DnD because of Anne Rice and Stephanie Myer (along with many other authors with vampires that don't glitter). Monte Cook even wrote a d20 World of Darkness game book.
Does the past matter? Yes. The past became classic because it has an appeal.
Does the present matter? Yes. I may like the idea of Lovecraft and Call of Cthulhu but Delta Green is more popular with me because it is closer to me in setting (I have troubles relating 1920s setting to most players).
Personally, I'm happy that Fantasy is moving away from Tolkein Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. The genre is very wide and for 20 years it got stuck in a rut where you got the same Tolkein refried mush despite which author that you went to.
I was happy to see someone reference the Hunger Games for a Ranger archetype in the Ranger Schtick thread (not that I'm a fan of Catmiss but my thoughts on the characters of that novel is not relevant to this post). It showed how new influences are speaking to people.
I know many of my friends are big into Harry Dresden. If they want to use that as their starting point for adventure then I'm more than happy to play that style of game.
In church, we say, no one has their name on a pew.
All are welcome to DnD and we've got 30+ years of writing rules to make it so.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, I was thinking that New Crobizon was a very D&D world, and Perdido St Station almost seemed like an adventure that was novelized. You could certainly easily run that kind of thing in D&D. The thing is, all that is new is old. I mean isn't New Crobizon kind of a reworking of City State of the Invincible Overlord pretty much? You could certainly fit the same style of adventure into either one.
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