Can you have out of body experiences?

Janx

Hero
When you figure out how I was able to ascertain that fact from a simple question you posed. Get back to me. BUT, not before then as you wil just waste my time.

You're on a forum, you're already wasting your time. let's not get too arrogant here sherlock.

Sabrina has listed his credentials in past threads. You could have picked it up there. Or you have access to NSA spy databases and abused your power to look up some dude you're arguing with on the internet.


The problem with your claim of knowing instances of psychics working with the FBI or whatever (forgive me if I get a detail wrong), is you've got the "it's a secret" shield up.

As with Kingius, how freaking hard is it to cite some article somewhere about a psychic working with the cops, Heck, start with the ones on TV. Sylvia Brown from the Montel show, the guy who EP'd the Ghost Whisperer based on his own experiences, Allison Dubois, who EP'd the show Medium because it was based on HER HELPING COPS.

Which, then I find, Wikipedia (well known and trusted well of facts), specifically debunks that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_DuBois
DuBois claims she uses this ability to connect deceased loved ones to the living, and also to help law enforcement agencies solve crimes, such as the Texas Rangers and the Glendale, Arizona police department, and that she used these abilities as a jury consultant.[3] These law enforcement agencies have since either denied any such cooperation happened or stated the tips provided by Dubois were not helpful.[1]

Now that's just one example (and sadly debunked). But seriously, do I have to do your job for you to prove YOUR point? Find a couple respectable links and post them to support the claim.
 

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
. But you have to look at the context to understand why and I'll get to that.
You didn't get to it.

Many other things that science accepts has much less evidence for it (or none at all), or may even be utterly unprovable and yet still stands as part of the established body of science.
Like what?

I'm also waiting for a 2 or 3 examples, as I asked earlier.

I reach a conclusion, which to me is obvious as it is shocking; science cannot look beyond the philosophy of materialism no matter what.
You want people to study invisible immaterial phenomenons? How are they supposed to be studied if they cannot be observed?

Todays materialists are hampering scientific progress by claiming that their way of viewing the world is the only true way.
Can you show other successful methods?
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
This is a noble thought. The problem that scientists have is that they cannot reproduce these phenonoma in a way that works with the scientific method. Hence they are not all over it. The researchers in to these matters have to take the phenonoma on its terms in order to 'figure it out'. These are hard subjects on the limits of human knowledge that just won't play the way we want them to. Perhaps our faith in science in these matters is unjustified; like how you have to go into the wild to observe a wild animal's natural behaviour (as an example), scientists, by and large, don't seem to understand not all things to be studied are necessarily equal. Perhaps our faith in them is justified; the scientists on the fringe, the mavericks, they are likely to be ones who make the break throughs, as history shows us, because they are not constrained by the same thinking as everyone else. Something to think about.

You seem to be confusing several different threads of thought here. Let's try to break it up a bit.

Scientists are materialists: well, not universally. Scientists, like all professions, cover a wide variety of beliefs and characters. Science, however, does require having something to study. Funny that. Yes, in order to study something, you have to have access to either the subject or the information on it. And yes, being able to duplicate something in a lab would be a pretty significant factor in establishing a science.

Scientists are closed minded or have their vision shuttered by blinders of Scientific method: again, not universally. There are scientists that choose to look into matters that are considered supernatural or paranormal. As far as I know, they have not succeeded in proving anything of the like exists, or that there is any probability of such a thing existing.

Not all things to be studied are equal? Science is about study. I would expect someone researching ESP to take the same strategies to explore that as any other science project: determine a methodology consistent with the topic, gather evidence, analyze, report. Investigate anything interesting. Yes, ESP is not the same as ichthyology, so the methodology of gathering information would be different.

Faith: I'd love to provide the definition of faith from Blake's7 here, but it is not admissible.

Finge/Maverick scientists make the breakthroughs: Um, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Someone else would have to provide the stats on which type provides more, as well as defining which scientists are "stodgy traditionalists" and which are "Fringers/Mavericks".

Scientists established and unwilling to question: I think scientists have to be willing to question just as a basic requirement of the title. Now, there are aspects of the human personality that are resistant to change. In archeology, there was a school of thought that said "_____ is the first group of humans to occupy North America." and rejected and discredited any attempt to prove otherwise, or even study it. It was later proven that ____ was Not the first group. This put egg on the faces of many academics, and those put down were eventually justified. But those academics were sacrificing science for prestige. In that, they were perhaps bad scientists. They eventually lost.

Do humans understand everything? No. But science is our best bet for learning.
Gravitation and Evolution are only theories. However, they are the two theories most supported by evidence of the universe around us.

Perhaps you want to believe in something so much, you are willing to ignore the evidence to the contrary?
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
Sabrina has listed his credentials in past threads. You could have picked it up there. Or you have access to NSA spy databases and abused your power to look up some dude you're arguing with on the internet.
The problem with your claim of knowing instances of psychics working with the FBI or whatever (forgive me if I get a detail wrong), is you've got the "it's a secret" shield up.

As with Kingius, how freaking hard is it to cite some article somewhere about a psychic working with the cops, Heck, start with the ones on TV. Sylvia Brown from the Montel show, the guy who EP'd the Ghost Whisperer based on his own experiences, Allison Dubois, who EP'd the show Medium because it was based on HER HELPING COPS.

Which, then I find, Wikipedia (well known and trusted well of facts), specifically debunks that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_DuBois

Now that's just one example (and sadly debunked). But seriously, do I have to do your job for you to prove YOUR point? Find a couple respectable links and post them to support the claim.

Or he could have just looked at my profile. It isn't hard to find my web page or work.

One other point: spectral evidence is not admissible in a US court of law. the only time it was accepted in the US was during the Salem witch trials (which were presided over by a man with no legal training), an incident almost universally condemned in legal circles.
Imagine this scene:
"Your Honor, we want a search warrant for ____."
"On what basis?"
"Our psychic had a vision."
"Was it verified?"
"Well, that's why we need the warrant."
"You came to me with that?"
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Parallel universes is accepted? [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] can probably clarify that.

Modern physics allows for multiple universes fairly easily. Note that "multiple" does not necessarily equate to "parallel", in the way it is often used in fiction.

Our Universe started in a Big Bang. There could have been (some would say likely were, when you review the math) other big bangs that created other universes. These universes are not related in any meaningful way. It isn't like in the universe next door, there's an exact copy of you, with just some minor point of history different, or something. The next universe over probably has a different set of physical constants and/or laws that mean we could not exist within that universe.

There's also the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, in which our universe branches every time a particle has to collapse into one particular quantum state over another - so that actually it collapses into *all* possible states. In this case, it is like the Universe just next door has an exact copy of you...

Note that in both these cases, the universes don't interact. The fact that there's another universe is largely moot - you can't get there from here. The existence of other universes would be something we'd call "non-falsifiable" or not testable. It is allowed by current theories, but we can neither confirm nor deny it. Not just "as a practical matter, we haven't yet figured it out yet", but "we could not, even in theory, confirm or deny it - confirming or denying it is, as far as we know, impossible."

Even Theories are still held with a taint of dubiousness, that's why they are classified as Theory. The only thing truly accepted as irrefutable are Laws.

And even those are noted as having limits. We sometime refer to Newton's Laws of Motion. But they are recognized as holding in Classical physics - meaning for largish objects moving at modest speeds. They don't hold for small objects (where quantum mechanics holds) or for really fast moving objects (where relativity holds). Thus demonstrating that we do alter our beliefs as we come up with more accurate models.

So, as I said about dumb people before, I don't understand the math. Umbran is smarter than me.

I may be better at math. But that's only one of many ways a person can be smart. :)
 

Arduin's

First Post
The existence of other universes would be something we'd call "non-falsifiable" or not testable. It is allowed by current theories, but we can neither confirm nor deny it.

Actually, per the Scientific Method a theory cannot be a theory if it is untestable and therefore not subject to falsification attempts. THUS, ANY "theory" that contains that is NOT in fact a scientific theory.

Which is of course why deism cannot be a scientific theory...
 

Janx

Hero
Actually, per the Scientific Method a theory cannot be a theory if it is untestable and therefore not subject to falsification attempts. THUS, ANY "theory" that contains that is NOT in fact a scientific theory.

Which is of course why deism cannot be a scientific theory...

Which is probably the difference between "theory" in conversation and "Theory" in science terms.

The capital T makes all the differences. I imagine it requires papers being published, reviews, confirmation by a team in China, etc.

I suspect that in most cases, if somebody says "I have a theory" they mean Hypothesis.

Such nit-picking leads to pedantry.

In any case, anybody who truly supports the principals of science, whether they know the official rules and parlance gets the idea that if you can't prove it, you ain't got much to work with. And if somebody comes up with a proof that contradicts you, then it's time to change your view.
 

Arduin's

First Post
Which is probably the difference between "theory" in conversation and "Theory" in science terms.

The capital T makes all the differences. I imagine it requires papers being published, reviews, confirmation by a team in China, etc.

No. Creation of a theory (scientific) does NOT rely on consensus, authority, et al. All that is required is adhering to the Scientific Method. What you just referenced, is the M.O. of religion and faith. Which is why any real scientist cringes when someone says that X number of scientists agree, therefore it is true.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's a bit circular. It works cause it produces result and the results prove that it works.

Well, no. The results prove that it works.

It works because, as I've already mentioned, it allows us to work around the common limitations and quirks of how humans think.
 

Zombie_Babies

First Post
Considering MILLIONS of people who CAN'T control this type of thing. And, the extremely small % of humanity that it RARELY happens to (according to the people saying it happens to them) AND, the insignificant number of controlled lab experiments on this. To state that since it hasn't been replicated in a lab it reflects on the probability that it does or, doesn't happen, is unscientific in the EXTREME.

Umm ... no. What's 'unscientific in the EXTREME' is accepting personal testimonial as scientific fact. You believe it's possible because Joe Bob said he predicted his steak would be burnt that one time at Applebee's and it was. That's what's unscientific.

Hell, look at the insane assumptions you're making. You say millions of people have this happen to them. How the hell do you know that? What's your proof aside from Joe Bob and his 'near death experience' that one time when he drank too much Coors at the NASCAR race? How is it scientific to trust the people who say it happened to them over scientific testing? I'll help you with this one: It's not. For one thing, there's that whole thing about taking accused criminals to trial. See, if we just asked them if they did it and they said 'no' and we believed them there wouldn't be many people in jail, would there? So why is it acceptable to doubt them there and then subject them to a trial (experiment) to prove whether or not they did, in fact, do it and somehow, at the same time, not acceptable to take someone who said they floated above their body when dead (or alive) and subject that to a trial of its own? Double standard, maybe?

True story - the body of work in 'science' is many and varied. It contains, among other things, theories which cannot be tested, never mind repeated, without jumping billions of years into the future (or the past). Much of what is accepted as canon is speculation expressed through mathematics. Quite how parallel universes are accepted, for example, when they are not provable in any way, when paranormal phenomenon like out of body expreience has a huge body of research and evidence to back it up... is what is called a /double standard/.

You'll never agree to this, despite it being true, so this is an utterly pointless discussion.

What body of research is there? Do you honestly assert that the body of research on this stuff is greater than that on parallel universes? Ok, let's play a game, then:

Umbran: You've told us a (very) little bit about parallel universes. Would you be so kind as to link one article discussing some research on the matter?

kingius: You've told us a (very) little bit about out of body experiences. Would you be so kind as to link one article discussing some research on the matter?
 

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