D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You've just put the onus on individual DM's. You've just handwave away the difficulty in doing that.

Welcome to 5e where rulings come before rules. In 5e the onus is on individual DMs for just about everything.

Not to mention the fact *nobody should have to do it* - this is exactly the stuff we pay WotC to do for us.
Which is what led to 3e and 4e where they did do everything for you. 5e hearkens back to 1e and 2e where the DM did much more.
 

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Corwin

Explorer
Welcome to 5e where rulings come before rules. In 5e the onus is on individual DMs for just about everything.

Which is what led to 3e and 4e where they did do everything for you. 5e hearkens back to 1e and 2e where the DM did much more.
For whatever reason, I continue to be surprised by those who toil so vigorously to convert 5e into 3e and/or 4e. Maybe my surprise is a result of my being so baffled as to their reasoning for trying? I mean, its not like they can't just use those editions' books to play the game they clearly prefer, right?
 

Barolo

First Post
Just tweaking the numbers does not get us anywhere. We're just sliding our setting on a scale - no matter what we choose the feat will always be a trap for newbies on one hand, and abusable for the powergamer on the other. Simultaneously.

Dial back the feat so it can't be abused even with pretty intricate minmaxing and we have a feat noone will take. Dial it back up so newbies aren't likely to be trapped by it, and we are right back at -5/+10.

For the casual player, it is a perfectly ok option. For a powergamer, almost any option (from actor feat assassins, to grapple-prone-locking, to armor of agathys/weavy armor master/paladocks, to cite a few) can become a force multiplier in unexpected ways.


The core of the problem is the feat applying an effect to every attack the character makes. It becomes a force multiplier; a stackable bonus. 5th edition is very stingy in handing those out, and for good reason. The rest of the game isn't set up to handle individual attacks that do d10+15 damage (from regular human heroes, not big monsters).

To actually solve the problem we need to abandon the idea that the feat gives a damage bonus altogether.

PS. Nothing wrong with damage bonuses, and bonuses in general. But that assumes they're small: in the +1 to +3 range..

See, this somewhat prevents the discussion from taking a more constructive direction. I acknowledge the feat is a problem for several tables, but I see it is not a problem in several other tables, that probably have a somewhat different playing style or difficulty level set by how their DM is building up encounters or whatever. I can't seem to notice you acknowledging this other side at all. Instead of trying to build some option that would satisfy yourself, you seem to spend a lot of time just trying to prove everybody else who has a different opinion from you is wrong. And then, the discussion derails, it goes from trying to work out interesting options for the feat to a heated discussion about whose opinion is right, which is what we are wasting time doing right now.

You point, for instance, that the game is not set up to handle individual attacks that do big damage. Isn't it really? Can't the rogue sneak attack all day long for up to 11d6 +5, only requiring an ally adjacent to the enemy? Can't this be effectively combo-ed up by the group consistently providing this same rogue with opportunity attacks? Isn't this ability of the rogue also an enabler for a combo?

You seem to bee too worried by this high damage per attack. There is at least one build which does not require feats or multiclassing or any other optional rule at all, that can be achieved with standard array, and allows for attacks dealing 3d6 + 10 damage basically all day long, without even having any penalty to hit. Quite similar to your d10 + 15, isn't it? And it is not dependent on the right circumstances (advantage, no high-AC enemies) or group cooperation (bless, bardic inspiration). Is it broken too?

Now, one thing I am trying to figure out is, what exactly do you (the general you), who does not like the damage boosting potential of GWM feat, expect a feat for great weapon wielders to do? It was pointed out earlier in the thread that there is no option for the S&B to up their damage to levels comparable to SS or GWM. That is true. But is that bad? I mean, if somebody goes for big melee weapons or archery instead of S&B, sacrificing the +2 bonus to AC, isn't that person already giving the message they want offense over defense? With feats, which usually make PCs more narrow in focus than simply taking ABIs, wasn't it expected that feats to support for those two styles would most likely just go for damage boosting?

Just to address the comments on S&B becoming somewhat weak, undesirable or overshadowed because of GWM, I don't see that happening. S&B's have other options, that just do different things. In my opinion, shield mastery leaves nothing to be desired when compared to GWM, and in some groups/playstyles/campaigns it is simply strictly better. S&B builds based on DEX can also take defensive duelist, which is pretty nice too. Neither of those feats boosts damage directly (although shield mastery actually allows for nasty damage-boosting team combos), but they are, nonetheless, competitive and valuable weapons on the powergamer arsenal.

There are several other options. For instance, a mix of warcaster, sentinel and either magical adept or just being an eldritch knight can do wonders for damage boosting potential, while even augmenting frontline stickiness. This may seem a long string of feats, but a variant human fighter can do the trick already at level 6, or 4 if going eldritch knight. In fact, sword and board eldritch knights can have ridiculously high damage output while keeping a very powerful defense by utilizing tactics to exploit their cantrip-charged opportunity attack, having a high base AC, and being able to top that up with Shield spell when the need arises. Is this ok, or does it need some nerfing too?

To each one its own. What I know is that I would not even bother to play as a warrior with a great weapon in a featless game, were I to let my powergamer side decide char-building (which actually is not usually the case, as I am very fond of (half)orc sorcerers, warlocks and rogues), as I don't think the base damage boost from a rapier/longsword to a greatsword is enough to make up for the AC loss. Worse still, it actually closes the door for a dex build, which has nice perks. SS is another beast altogether, but it has more to do with the obvious benefits of staying out of harm's way to begin with.

Now, finally trying to go back to track, I really think that whatever option is to be tinkered for great weapon mastery, it would be advisable to accept that for it to be desirable by someone going great weapon (and thus pursuing offense), it will probably go the way of damage boosting somehow. Nonetheless, any flat bonuses without hindrances are a bad idea, as they will seem like a boring option, and worse still, a feat tax for those who want to pursue this combat style.

Making the feat allow for a single attack dealing the full combined damage of all the attacks a warrior would have plus some extra to make up for the "all in or nothing" aspect, as already pointed out, is an interesting idea, as it would keep the high-risk/high-reward concept still valid. It would not be useful for mass gnoll killing, though, which points to limitations to its usefulness. It would also make the feat a not-starter-level deal, as it would depend on the extra attack feature. I think some people will like this perk while others will not be so pleased.

Another option would be to allow for exploding dice (rerolling maximum numbers for damage). I know some die-hard Earthdawn fans who would just love that. To invoke the high-risk/high-reward element again, this should come with a drawback, maybe letting the feat reduce base weapon dice, or give some to-hit penalty, or even some AC penalty while the warrior pulls this trick. Of course, when I think about all the options I just gave, I can already see they can be somehow exploited, in different ways from the original feat, of course, which leaves me wondering, is there really any option that would still incur into a legitimately meaningful choice, but still exploitation-free?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
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See, this somewhat prevents the discussion from taking a more constructive direction. I acknowledge the feat is a problem for several tables, but I see it is not a problem in several other tables. I can't seem to notice you acknowledging this other side at all. Instead of trying to build some option that would satisfy yourself, you seem to spend a lot of time just trying to prove everybody else who has a different opinion from you is wrong. And then, the discussion derails, it goes from trying to work out interesting options for the feat to a heated discussion about whose opinion is right, which is what we are wasting time doing right now.
Once the shouting has been going a while, it's hard to tell who's shouting-down and who's shouting to be heard.

The OP wanted help modding a feat. People are shouting loudly over that attempt at discussion that the feat doesn't need to be modded and that it needs it so bad that WotC just must errata it.

You've just put the onus on individual DM's. You've just handwave away the difficulty in doing that.
Yes, I did (well WotC did in the way they chose to design & promote 5e, I'm merely accepting of it), and yes, I have. And, as unfair as that may sound, it's the price of DM Empowerment, and it's a way to let everyone play the game the way they want, without publishing reams of official variants ('modules') for everyone to sort through (and some still probably end up modding or coming up with their own).

OK, unavoidably, it means anyone who coincidentally got exactly what they want from the game and doesn't feel even the slightest need to mod it can puff themselves up feeling all proprietary about the game, and that everyone else is doin' it wrong. But, just as fixing the broken bits of the game you don't care for is on you, their attitude is on them.

:shrug:

Not to mention the fact *nobody should have to do it*
Inevitably, somebody will have to. If you get GWM errata'd the way you want, Max will have to mod it back into his preferred degree of brokedness, for instance.

It is *their* selection of feats. This is the core rulebook the PHB we're talking about, not some obscure splatbook aimed towards system-mastering experts.
It's in the core book, but its explicitly optional. Opt-in at your own risk.

But the worst thing is your readiness to join those who'd rather blame the DM for not excluding the feat, rather than the obvious conclusion of blaming WotC for including it!
Actually, they seem pretty ticked at me, too:
Holy Mother of Absurd Arguments Batman! That's one of the most ludicrous responses I've seen on this forum. Well done! It's hard to top a lot of them. ...
Up until now I've viewed you as one of the more reasonable posters here. After this last statement that's no longer the case. I can't see how anyone reasonable could come up with something so ridiculous.

When I say it's not a problem for everyone, it does not at all sound like I'm saying that numerical imbalances do not exist. It sounds like I'm saying that whether it's a problem or not is completely subjective and that it will only be a problem for those who dislike that particular imbalance.
Obviously, what it 'sounds like,' can be pretty subjective, too. I did get that you were trying to say that, though the imbalance was real, some people, including yourself, either didn't mind or actively preferred it that way. That preference is subjective, of course, and I've no problem with you stating it, other than that it's probably waste of everyone's time, especially the nth time you've repeated it.

'Problem,' however, gets used interchangeably with 'broken' and 'imbalanced' and so forth, so "It's only a problem for Zapp (and others like him)," can be read as he's running the game wrong and breaking it. You could quite easily avoid giving that impression, if you wanted to.

Of the two of us, he's the only one here arguing that the other side must feel and act a certain way.
You're both seem'n pretty unreasonable to me. He could just discuss ways to fix the issue rather than campaigning for WotC to adopt the fix (if it works for you, why do you need WotC to shove it out there? Just use it.), you could just not participate in the thread (you have no problem with the issue, so no need to discuss how to fix it - unless, of course, you already have fixed it, and care to share how).

... of course, which leaves me wondering, is there really any option that would still incur into a legitimately meaningful choice, but still exploitation-free?
Any option can be exploited by system mastery, simply limiting the degree it can be exploited is about all that can be hoped for. "Don't use it" thus remains the safest fix. ;)
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signal
Only the attack that you toggle the feat on for gets the -5.

Sword and board got a minor increase thanks to buffing of the shield master feat.
Sounds reasonable.

My point is that instead of obsessing whether +7 is right, or perhaps +6 or +9, we need to question the very core of the feat's design.
When 5e went with at-will Extra Attack instead of iterative attacks or limited-use multi-attack maneuvers, it made static damage bonuses that much higher-impact, sure. Thus a large static bonus, even accompanied by a large penalty, is problematic.

Flamestrike's idea of limiting it to once/turn would seem to address that part of the problem. Also...
Making the feat allow for a single attack dealing the full combined damage of all the attacks a warrior would have plus some extra to make up for the "all in or nothing" aspect, as already pointed out, is an interesting idea, as it would keep the high-risk/high-reward concept still valid.
I rather like the idea of the 'power attack' option taking an action of it's own and bypassing Extra Attack, entirely - but doing multiple dice of damage. (That, too, would need some numeric tuning to get right.)

It would not be useful for mass gnoll killing, though, which points to limitations to its usefulness. It would also make the feat a not-starter-level deal, as it would depend on the extra attack feature. I think some people will like this perk while others will not be so pleased.
Some feats not kicking in at 1st, considering only Variant humans can take feats at 1st, doesn't sound so bad, yeah.

Another option would be to allow for exploding dice (rerolling maximum numbers for damage). I know some die-hard Earthdawn fans who would just love that. To invoke the high-risk/high-reward element again, this should come with a drawback, maybe letting the feat reduce base weapon dice, or give some to-hit penalty, or even some AC penalty while the warrior pulls this trick.
I've never much cared for exploding dice. GW style already re-rolls low dice, so that could be a lot of rolling... ;)
 
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Corwin

Explorer
People are shouting loudly over that attempt at discussion that the feat doesn't need to be modded and that it needs it so bad that WotC just must errata it.
Who is telling the OP not to mod the feat? I must have missed that. Though I agree I've heard a few claim the latter.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
'Problem,' however, gets used interchangeably with 'broken' and 'imbalanced' and so forth, so "It's only a problem for Zapp (and others like him)," can be read as he's running the game wrong and breaking it. You could quite easily avoid giving that impression, if you wanted to.

No it can't, or at least it can't reasonably be interpreted that way. What you are doing is akin to me saying, "Fluffy bunny" and you being offended at what I said. Fluffy bunny is not something inherently offensive, so it's your fault if you are offended by it. I'm also not going to alter how I say things in order to help you with your mistaken impression. That's not my responsibility. It's on you to correct whatever is causing you to see something as radically different than what it is.

You're both seem'n pretty unreasonable to me. He could just discuss ways to fix the issue rather than campaigning for WotC to adopt the fix (if it works for you, why do you need WotC to shove it out there? Just use it.), you could just not participate in the thread (you have no problem with the issue, so no need to discuss how to fix it - unless, of course, you already have fixed it, and care to share how).

Why would I already have a fix for something that isn't a concern for me? My objection is to his statements that it is universally broken or abusable when it's a fact that it is not.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
No it can't, or at least it can't reasonably be interpreted that way. What you are doing is akin to me saying, "Fluffy bunny" and you being offended at what I said. Fluffy bunny is not something inherently offensive, so it's your fault if you are offended by it. I'm also not going to alter how I say things in order to help you with your mistaken impression. That's not my responsibility. It's on you to correct whatever is causing you to see something as radically different than what it is.



Why would I already have a fix for something that isn't a concern for me? My objection is to his statements that it is universally broken or abusable when it's a fact that it is not.
The notion that WotC should only fix what I personally have issues with or find broken is profoundly ungenerous and short-sighted in my opinion.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

D

dco

Guest
Why would I already have a fix for something that isn't a concern for me? My objection is to his statements that it is universally broken or abusable when it's a fact that it is not.
And how do you reach that conclusion? Or is it a subjective opinion stated as a fact?
 

Why would I already have a fix for something that isn't a concern for me? My objection is to his statements that it is universally broken or abusable when it's a fact that it is not.

And how do you reach that conclusion? Or is it a subjective opinion stated as a fact?
Presumably if something was indeed "universally broken", then its brokenness or abusability would be a universal issue. Rather than just an issue for some groups and not others.

No one is saying that people aren't allowed to hold subjective opinions. No one is saying that the feat, or any other aspect of the game, isn't an issue at some tables.
But the claim that something is a system-wide issue, and thus affects everyone is outside the remit of the OP, and pointing out the existence of groups that don't have an issue with it is relevant to that claim.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And how do you reach that conclusion? Or is it a subjective opinion stated as a fact?

I reached that conclusion because if it's not broken or abusable for even one person, then it's an absolute fact that it's not universally broken or abusable. I'm not the only one who it's not broken or abusable for, but even it I was, I am sufficient for him to be factually wrong.
 

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