D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

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[MENTION=6777737]Bacon Bits[/MENTION] Why aren't suggestions for altering playstyle just as valid as suggestions for altering the feat? No one is saying you have to do either, but by making those types of suggestions someone may be exposed to a new idea to make their game better.

Nerfing can happen by changing the feat or changing the the game the feat is in. I'd say there are plenty of examples of both of these in this thread, with dozens of good choices for how to change the feat directly and a few for how to change your game.

I didn't say they weren't valid. Indeed, except for those who just say, "it works for me," I explicitly said they were solutions. They're just solutions we reject. Changing playstyle to fix a problem with a feat is like switching to Savage Worlds to fix a problem with a class. It resolves the issue, but it's a lot more work than you need to do. All I'm arguing is that modifying the feat is a perfectly valid solution to having a problem with -5/+10. However, every time I say that, someone seems to disagree with me.

I've still seen no real argument justifying a reason that the feat should remain as-is. The game of D&D is designed to be changed to suit your style. We pick a game system because it supports the type of game we want to run. I want to run a fantasy dungeon crawl? I run D&D. I want a wild west adventure? I probably pick Deadlands. We pick campaign settings because they support the type of campaign we want to run. Maybe I want Dark Sun, or Middle Earth, or Greyhawk for my adventure. We pick the plotlines to explore, the dungeons to create, the NPCs to interact with, the stories to tell, and the encounters to challenge the players with. As players, we pick the class or abilities of the characters we want to play. In some game systems, we get to pick right down to the ability scores on the sheet and the exact mechanics we employ during play. Nearly everything we do in roleplaying is about making the mechanics fit the style. The mechanics need to be fair, reasonable, and comprehensible, but beyond that it's always about the mechanics suiting the style. So why should anyone change their style for mechanics? What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter into the tail that wags the dog?


Do you find these two quotes, from your one post, to be at all at odds? Even a little? Just curious.

Because if he's running OotA (a published adventure), yet has decided to repeatedly run a preferred type of encounter*, that is in turn leading to your problems, how is it that a published adventure can be the cause of the problem?

No, I don't think they're contradictory, but I can absolutely see why you would read it that way. The former is a general statement about running D&D. The latter is a specific statement about how my current DM is running D&D.

The way our game table works is that everybody DMs. We all take turns. Some of us like to DM so they do it more often, but everybody is expected to DM some of the time.

Our current DM runs a published adventure because, honestly, he's not the type to create a campaign himself. To be brutally honest, he's not a very creative DM. He wouldn't create the NPCs, the background story, etc. He balances encounters by adding and removing monsters and using the guidelines and using one of the online encounter calculators. Then he runs the monsters presented. When he needs henchmen for a solo fight, he picks something appropriate from the MM. Almost every encounter he runs is deadly. He says they're a waste of time otherwise. He also gives out a lot of treasure. Most of the PCs in the 6-8 PC party have 3 attuned magic items already. He also runs the game every week virtually without fail everybody has a lot of fun. You might not like his style, but he's not a bad DM. He's just not Matthew Mercer. Telling this guy to "change his DM style" is going to be about as effective as asking a wall to step aside. He's not going to do it because he's already playing how he wants to play, and everybody at the table has fun even if some of our players would rather have less combat.

So how is this all the fault of the module? It's not in our case. It's entirely how our DM is running it. However, I also know DMs who don't even do what our current DM does. They always run combat encounters exactly like they're presented in the module. If the module doesn't tell you how to modify for more or fewer players, then they don't do that. It's sloppy, but they do it because they simply don't have time to fully plan everything out, or lack the necessary experience to correct the flaws. I've played with DMs who are reading the module at the table as the players are exploring it. We had one DM draw a gigantic square room in the room on his battlemat, and then draw a big circle inside reaching almost to the walls. "What's that?" I said. "Uh...," he said, reading the module, "it's a bit pit to hell." Then he said, "Oh, wait. I wasn't supposed to draw that. It's covered by an Illusory Wall." Again, you're not going to change the style of this sort of DM. You can criticize this DMing style, but if people are playing the game and having fun and the only problem they're finding is -5/+10... why should they change their style and not just the feat?

[*BTW, I've played through that entire adventure. It's not, as far as I experienced, full of "a large number of plain, straightforward, deadly combats". In case that comes up next...]

It is the way our DM ran it.

[sblock]It ended in a slugfest against Demogorgon in downtown Menzoberranzan. He ran Demogorgon undamaged, so we faced a full CR 26 creature at level 15. Honestly, with the amount of magic we had it wasn't that dicey until the cleric was feebleminded. A blessing of heroism and Heroes' Feast buff were definitely the MVPs of that combat, though. We ended with half the party unconscious and most of the other characters at half max hp from the necrotic damage.[/sblock]

He's now going to run us up to level 20, because his campaigns always end at level 20. He's the only DM that consistently does that.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
[sblock=noise]
I can not be wrong on this, since "broken" and "abusable" are subjective terms here.
That's the point of retreating into the everything-is-subjective stance, isn't it? You realize you can't show you're right, so you settle for re-framing the debate (re-define 'broken'/'abuseable as subjective terms, rather than system qualities that people can have differing subjective opinions about), such that being wrong isn't even on the table.

No it can't, or at least it can't reasonably be interpreted that way.
You're insisting that the mechanics of GWM and their impact on the game are totally subjective, but now also insist that what you have been saying /can't possibly be interpreted in more than one way/.

I reached that conclusion because if it's not broken or abusable for even one person, then it's an absolute fact that it's not universally broken or abusable.
It's also a meaningless claim about it. By that logic: there are billions of people who don't play D&D, therefor have no problem with any of it's mechanics, therefor, since the vast majority of people have no problem with D&D's mechanics, it's mechanics are perfect, or as close to perfect as makes no practical difference.

Comforting, no?

Why would I already have a fix for something that isn't a concern for me?
As a result of fixing something else. For instance, I fix GWM/SS in my non-AL 5e games by not opting into feats, but that's not the reason I don't opt into feats, it just happens to fix the problem, preemptively.

My objection is to his statements that it is universally broken or abusable when it's a fact that it is not.
The 'universally' bit is just silly, the mechanics have the quality of being broken or abuseable or imbalanced or however you want to label that quality, whether a given table experiences a problem (or appreciates them all the more) because of that quality or not.

We're just refuting the claim that its unbalanced at all tables.
I don't opt into feats, so it is not unbalanced at my table - that doesn't mean GWM is balanced at my table, it just means it's absent from my table.

I think that the claims of "This is s system-wide issue and the feat must be removed from the game"
Aside from the odd illogic of a system-wide issue being fixed by removing on optional rule, the one forumite you must be talking about has been demanding WotC fix the feat, not remove it.

Who is telling the OP not to mod the feat?
No one: the typical claim is more along the lines that it doesn't /need/ to be modded (but go ahead and do so unnecessarily!). In greater detail:

I've still seen no real argument justifying a reason that the feat should remain as-is.
Errata confuses new players?


The arguments I've seen made and defended in this thread include:

  • People have suggested altering encounters or altering monster statistics in order to deal with the effects of the feat. .. the only reason to suggest such a thing is because one believes that modifying the rest of the campaign is significantly preferable to modifying the feat.
  • People have suggested the solution is to not use feats at all because they're optional. .. the only reason to take this approach is because one believes that not using any feats at all is preferable to modifying the feat.
  • People have suggested that the feat has never been a problem in their campaigns. I think that on it's face that's pretty clearly a direct argument for not modifying the feat at all.... It's like telling a man who broke his leg while riding a horse that you've ridden the horse before and not broken your leg. It's begging the question.

So, yes, people have repeatedly argued to not modify the feat.
BTW, I still think not using feats in the first place is a terribly easy fix....
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but one point of fact regarding power balance with GWM is that you are melee without a shield to use it. Haven't seen this point acknowledged, and is not insignificant.
It seems unfair to consider giving up the +2 AC to use GWM, when you already gave it up to get use GW fighting style, in the first place, even if feats aren't available.

[MENTION=6777737]Why aren't suggestions for altering playstyle just as valid as suggestions for altering the feat?
The OP has already gotten to the point of altering the feat, he presumably wants to alter it to fit his playstyle.
Besides, playstyle is often an organic, even un-examined, thing.

instead of a discusion about how to balance the damn feat for people who has a problem with it we have to read uncountable times it works perfectly because of the awful reasoning that it works perfectly for you and other people?
And the discusion keeps coming to the same off topic, I'm starting to think people love trolling threads.
The signal-to-noise ratio of this thread is running about .1 -that's just counting posts with any on-topic content vs those with none at all.
[/sblock]

signal
In my case, I suggested increasing the AC of monsters by 3 (if you felt your players weren't being challenged enough due to the power attack combo).
Not the impression I got from the OP. It might make the option less attractive some of the time, but it would also make everyone miss more often, which might or might not be noticeable to them and/or lengthen combats...
I don't feel that getting rid of the feat (or just getting rid of power attack) is a good universal fix.
Something like power attack would be nice to have, especially when feats are opted-in, as Power Attack was a nice option in 3.5, which edition feats tend to evoke.

I personally might have suggested that this portion of the feat simply grant a +10 damage, once per rest.
I guess it is only part of a feat... would that be once in the sense of one attack, or one combat or something in-between?

Barbarian damage falls off compared to other melee classes at levels 11+ if they do not have access to a "power attack" like feature. That however is relatively easy to fix. Give barbarians a class feature that is equivalent to -5 to attack rolls for +10 to damage with two handed weapons or -5/+5 with one handed ones.
That addresses something the OP said way back on the 1st page:

And sure he runs out of rages. But he's a veteran player and tends to conserve them for when he needs to wreck house. He feels like the -5/+10 is necessary for the barbarian to function offensively; otherwise, they don't hit particularly harder than anyone else, they're just more accurate.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But in this context I think that if it's considered broken by a majority, or perhaps overwhelming majority, is a better measure than one person against all of the rest.

Having said that, I also agree that in the context of this ability, I don't think that a majority have found it broken, much less an overwhelming majority. But it is one that I see crop up in a lot of different forums, etc. so at the very least I'll agree it's more challenging of a feat than most others for DMs to manage.

Just because I have a problem with something, doesn't mean it's a problem for the majority of others. Likewise, just because I don't have a problem with it, doesn't mean there isn't really a problem.

To put it a different way, the only people that can set a threshold for "broken" or "not broken" is WotC. If their criteria is one person. Than you are factually correct. But if their criteria is 51%, then you are factually incorrect. Others may disagree with their assessment, but since they've provided at least two new attempts at the ranger, they seem to be willing to consider re-addressing things that the community as a whole (whatever number that is) feels is broken.

Or, since I also work with manufacturers - If your assembly line produced only 1 success with every 99 failures, you'd be out of business.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem for other people, only that it's not a problem for me. Therefore, his claim that it is a problem for me is false.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That assumes a perfect assessment from all people. Everyone who has played with the feat has assessed it correctly? What about differences between campaigns? Different campaigns will have differently designed encounters and differently designed challenges.

You're going to have to explain this better. How is my factual statement about me and my game assuming a perfect assessment from all people?

We noticed the problem with GWM while playing Out of the Abyss under a DM who likes to run a large number of plain, straightforward, deadly combats. We noticed the problem with Sharpshooter in a short side campaign that featured a fairly high amount of combat. However, in a Curse of Strahd campaign we normally alternate OotA with, the DM focuses on exploration and roleplaying much more than combat, and nobody has even considered taking GWM or Sharpshooter. Does that mean we shouldn't consider the feat broken in Out of the Abyss?

How is that relevant to my game where it won't be broken or a problem in any campaign?

Whether or not something is absolutely, universally broken is such an impossible standard that it's irrelevant to the entire topic of whether or not it should be altered.

I didn't say it was. However, the 5e mantra of rulings over rules is relevant as to whether or not it should be altered. 5e assumes that the DM will alter/rule things based on his needs.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's the point of retreating into the everything-is-subjective stance, isn't it? You realize you can't show you're right, so you settle for re-framing the debate (re-define 'broken'/'abuseable as subjective terms, rather than system qualities that people can have differing subjective opinions about), such that being wrong isn't even on the table.j

I'm not re-framing anything. The debate is automatically subjective as that's the nature of "broken" and "abuseable" as they are being used here.

You're insisting that the mechanics of GWM and their impact on the game are totally subjective, but now also insist that what you have been saying /can't possibly be interpreted in more than one way/.

You can interpret it as twinkies if you want to. You'd be just about as accurate. Also, your Strawman of "reasonably" into "can't possibly" is noted.

It's also a meaningless claim about it. By that logic: there are billions of people who don't play D&D, therefor have no problem with any of it's mechanics, therefor, since the vast majority of people have no problem with D&D's mechanics, it's mechanics are perfect, or as close to perfect as makes no practical difference.

On the flip side, by your logic if even one person finds something broken, it is and it's an issue that needs to be fixed. That makes every single D&D ever made broken and in need of fixing.

See, I can use your absurd arguments, too. ;)

As a result of fixing something else. For instance, I fix GWM/SS in my non-AL 5e games by not opting into feats, but that's not the reason I don't opt into feats, it just happens to fix the problem, preemptively.

There is no problem with those feats for me. Therefore nothing I do can "fix" them, preemptively or not.

The 'universally' bit is just silly, the mechanics have the quality of being broken or abuseable or imbalanced or however you want to label that quality, whether a given table experiences a problem (or appreciates them all the more) because of that quality or not.

They do not have that quality for me.
 

Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
This thread has way too many civility violations and is in serious need of moderation.

Unfortunately, I'm sick and haven't been able to catch up with the thread. Thus, I'm temporarily closing it to prevent it from deteriorating even further. Hopefully, I'll be ready to open it again around the weekend.
 

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