The Readied Spell Abyss

[Lancelot]

My personal rulings:

1) Actions can't be readied outside combat. There is no way a PC can ready a spell such that it goes off before initiative is rolled. But that's already been noted above, so let's move on...

2) Yes, most readied actions are observable. The archer is aiming his bow at the door. The caster has just chanted a bunch of words and made some hand gestures, and is now facing the door with energy crackling around her hands (or is still chanting and gesturing to "hold" the spell). However, I would rule that a spell with no V or S components is not observable. Hence, some benefit to the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic option.

3) Any spell is observable (even if it's a suggestion rather than a fireball), as long as it has V or S components. The caster is waving their hands around and chanting.

4) A readied spell can be identified with an Arcana check. You recognize the words or gestures, even if it doesn't have visible "energy".

5) No, I would not allow dispel magic on a readied spell. As per RAW, there is no spell in effect yet. There is a potential for a spell; nothing more. The correct way of taking out a readied spell is counterspell. As per RAW, this interrupts a creature in the process of casting a spell. A readied spell is still in the process of casting it - there is no target yet, no effect in play, and the casting will not be completed successfully (i.e. the spell will be lost) if the trigger for the readied action doesn't go off before the start of the caster's next turn.

You might disagree with the last one, but you asked for how I rule it - and that's how I rule it.

 

[5ekyu]

The latter. The Ready action only appears under the list of "Actions in Combat" on p. 192, which says "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here..." Readying actions isn't mentioned in any other context, so there's no reason to think that it can be done outside of combat. Stealth and the Surprised condition are the mechanics for determining the outcome of an ambush or surprise attack in 5E.

Re the bold - of course there is a reason to think it can be done outside of combat - because there is nothing inherent in being attacked or shot at or aggressive to make one imagine they have *more* control over timing and coordination than when calmly sitting around on a warm day.

Is drawing a weapon discussed outside of the combat section? if not, does that mean you cannot draw a weapon until after combat begins?

there is nothing in the rules that i am aware of that requires them to repeat the rules for a thing in *every* section it could possibly apply to.

If two characters were sitting at a show and one wanted to throw an illusion at the moment a singer hit their high note in the song, do they need to start a brawl to be allowed to do that?

But this is still just distraction - the same situation can be prefaced by "in combat" and the questions still remain about the "in-between" state of ready spells.

 

[5ekyu]

My personal rulings:

1) Actions can't be readied outside combat. There is no way a PC can ready a spell such that it goes off before initiative is rolled. But that's already been noted above, so let's move on...

2) Yes, most readied actions are observable. The archer is aiming his bow at the door. The caster has just chanted a bunch of words and made some hand gestures, and is now facing the door with energy crackling around her hands (or is still chanting and gesturing to "hold" the spell). However, I would rule that a spell with no V or S components is not observable. Hence, some benefit to the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic option.

3) Any spell is observable (even if it's a suggestion rather than a fireball), as long as it has V or S components. The caster is waving their hands around and chanting.

4) A readied spell can be identified with an Arcana check. You recognize the words or gestures, even if it doesn't have visible "energy".

5) No, I would not allow dispel magic on a readied spell. As per RAW, there is no spell in effect yet. There is a potential for a spell; nothing more. The correct way of taking out a readied spell is counterspell. As per RAW, this interrupts a creature in the process of casting a spell. A readied spell is still in the process of casting it - there is no target yet, no effect in play, and the casting will not be completed successfully (i.e. the spell will be lost) if the trigger for the readied action doesn't go off before the start of the caster's next turn.

You might disagree with the last one, but you asked for how I rule it - and that's how I rule it.

Thanks and I can understand wanting to rule the counterspell that way even though the wording of "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. " would seem to read that the spell casting had been resolved. certainly a silence popping up after the ready-cast would not stop the spell in the "between" stage even if it had verbal components.

But one of the things that came up in other places was the following example - even though some feel you should never ever ready a spell - based on the idea that counterspell would not work due to the casting being completed:

caster of any sort near a wall or other source of total cover like say just a corner.
caster is fighting intelligent enemies with counterspells.
caster turn - step back 10' to get behind cover - unseen.
caster casts ready spell with trigger when i see ABC (ABC being the preferred target in the other side of the cover.)
caster steps out from behind cover and triggers because he can now see BC.
spell goes off.
caster still has say 10' of move and any bonus actions.

At this point, the caster has traded about 20' of movement and his reaction for gaining a non-counterspell spell-casting.

that is a simplified example but, even though some see ready spell as always the wrong answer, if the already readied spell and held energy is not subject to any/all the issues of "active casting" ready spell would seem to be a potentially very worthwhile tool.

 

[Prakriti]

Re the bold - of course there is a reason to think it can be done outside of combat - because there is nothing inherent in being attacked or shot at or aggressive to make one imagine they have *more* control over timing and coordination than when calmly sitting around on a warm day.

But what does Readying an action outside of combat achieve that the normal Surprise rules don't?

If the enemies are unaware of the players, then they are Surprised. In which case, the Fighter makes his ranged attack and the Cleric casts his spell in the first round, while the enemies stand there and take it.

If the enemies ARE aware of the players, then they have essentially Readied actions of their own: "Attack enemies on sight." So how do you determine which side goes first? You roll initiative, and you call it Combat.

 

[Shiroiken]

It seems likely that the focus of a readied action should be fairly obvious. In your example, both would be staring at the door, the fighter would likely have an arrow knocked and drawn, and the cleric would have his holy symbol out or his hands in a particular position (assuming S or M components). The trigger may not be obvious, but might be discernible with an Insight check (a common "readied" 3E action was to shoot a caster when the cast a spell, potentially disrupting it).

I don't know of any official ruling on spells cast and held for a Ready Reaction. Nothing in the PHB that I saw says you lose the energy at the start of your turn, so as a DM, I would allow the spell to remain Readied (taking up the next turn's action as needed) so long as the caster maintains concentration. Prior editions, IIRC, did cause you to lose the spell though, so other DMs may rule differently.

As far as ready outside of combat, there is nothing in the book that says you cannot, therefore it's a DM's call. IMO, readied attacks and spells can be problematic, because it creates combat outside of initiative (which shouldn't happen in 5E). The easy solution I use is that you can ready anything, but if the trigger would normally cause initiative to be rolled (e.g. a hostile creature moves into view), you gain surprise instead, assuming the target doesn't realize you are there. If they are already aware of you (or any potential threat) before causing the trigger, then initiative is rolled as normal.

Edit: Ninja'd by @Prakriti on the readied action out of combat.

 

[5ekyu]

It seems likely that the focus of a readied action should be fairly obvious. In your example, both would be staring at the door, the fighter would likely have an arrow knocked and drawn, and the cleric would have his holy symbol out or his hands in a particular position (assuming S or M components). The trigger may not be obvious, but might be discernible with an Insight check (a common "readied" 3E action was to shoot a caster when the cast a spell, potentially disrupting it).

I don't know of any official ruling on spells cast and held for a Ready Reaction. Nothing in the PHB that I saw says you lose the energy at the start of your turn, so as a DM, I would allow the spell to remain Readied (taking up the next turn's action as needed) so long as the caster maintains concentration. Prior editions, IIRC, did cause you to lose the spell though, so other DMs may rule differently.

As far as ready outside of combat, there is nothing in the book that says you cannot, therefore it's a DM's call. IMO, readied attacks and spells can be problematic, because it creates combat outside of initiative (which shouldn't happen in 5E). The easy solution I use is that you can ready anything, but if the trigger would normally cause initiative to be rolled (e.g. a hostile creature moves into view), you gain surprise instead, assuming the target doesn't realize you are there. If they are already aware of you (or any potential threat) before causing the trigger, then initiative is rolled as normal.

Edit: Ninja'd by @Prakriti on the readied action out of combat.

"...which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn." is at the beginning of readied action and seems to apply to even the spell section. So the idea that for a readied spell you could keep it going turn after turn until the trigger seems very off by that initial definition of ready action and what it does.

this is actually more explicitly confirmed in the current Sage Advice Compendium which says that "A readied spell's slot is lost if you don't release the spell with your reaction before the start of your next turn."

Not everyone considers SA to be rules but as far as this goes, it is really not changing and just confirming the basic definition in ready action.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, you would not lose your readied spell on your next turn.

But, it's concentration to hold the spell, not anything to do with the Ready Action per se. So, here's my question. If I ready a spell for a given trigger (first guy I see come through the door) and that trigger doesn't happen, could I not switch up my trigger next round?

 

[5ekyu]

But what does Readying an action outside of combat achieve that the normal Surprise rules don't?

If the enemies are unaware of the players, then they are Surprised. In which case, the Fighter makes his ranged attack and the Cleric casts his spell in the first round, while the enemies stand there and take it.

If the enemies ARE aware of the players, then they have essentially Readied actions of their own: "Attack enemies on sight." So how do you determine which side goes first? You roll initiative, and you call it Combat.

there is a massive difference between "what does it do" and "can it be done" and what is being claimed is that because ready action is only mentioned in the combat section and in its effect on combat then the action cannot be done outside of combat.

Not only is that inherently nonsensical - requiring a capability to be mentioned in multiple rules chapters or be assumed to not be able to be used in ones covering topics it was not mentioned in - it is basically ignoring the likely numerous cases where something described in the combat section are simply not repeated elsewhere.

Might as well ask "so what does drawing a sword outside of combat matter?" when you tell the player "no, until combat starts you cannot draw your blade."

 

[Prakriti]

Not only is that inherently nonsensical - requiring a capability to be mentioned in multiple rules chapters or be assumed to not be able to be used in ones covering topics it was not mentioned in - it is basically ignoring the likely numerous cases where something described in the combat section are simply not repeated elsewhere

No one's arguing that everything in the combat chapter is relegated to combat: Just the actions listed under "Actions in Combat," and only those (like Dodge) that aren't mentioned in any other context.

 

[Hussar]

there is a massive difference between "what does it do" and "can it be done" and what is being claimed is that because ready action is only mentioned in the combat section and in its effect on combat then the action cannot be done outside of combat.

Not only is that inherently nonsensical - requiring a capability to be mentioned in multiple rules chapters or be assumed to not be able to be used in ones covering topics it was not mentioned in - it is basically ignoring the likely numerous cases where something described in the combat section are simply not repeated elsewhere.

Might as well ask "so what does drawing a sword outside of combat matter?" when you tell the player "no, until combat starts you cannot draw your blade."

There is a difference though. Drawing your sword doesn't actually do anything, mechanically. And, while it is mentioned in the combat section, under "use an item", there are several exceptions specifically listed, including the fact that drawing your weapon can be part of the attack.

Readying and Action, as an Action is a specific game artifact governed by several fairly concrete rules.

Casting a spell during a play, as the example above, isn't a "Readying an Action" action. It's a surprise action, presuming no one is expecting you to do so during the middle of a play. Readying an Action, as the game artifact, presumes you are already in combat and you are trading your action for a reaction. As another example, using the play, if my fighter jumped on stage and attacked, he'd get surprise, and thus his full suite of attacks, rather than a single Readied Action attack.

Now, sure, you could cast and hold a spell outside of combat. I don't see why not. It's no different than holding your sword. Although, to be fair, it would be kinda wonky to keep concentration up that long, and I don't see it as being unreasonable that you would lose the spell eventually.

The reason for this is to stop casters from double tapping spells in the first round of combat. Ready a spell, roll initiative, fire off the readied spell and then cast your next spell on your turn seems awfully powerful.

Fortunately, I think most DM's would simply say, "no, you can't do that, stop being a twerp".