Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

then I must interfere with things like Star Wars, the Dark Phoenix and Dragon Ball Z:
You just Cannot destroy a planet, because a planet has found a semi-permanent place in the universe;
if you use DB Z tools ( apart from Ariel ) the Sacred Dragon ( if not a representation of the Planet herself ) will easily evacuate the intruders, telephoning to a friendly and well calculated planet to get the intruders a base of operation that would help them eliminating their struggle for power intent ;

I have threats in this book that can destroy a planet, so it will be up to the (PCs) heroes to save the day, one way or another.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Right back at ya!

Hey buddy!

That has nothing to do with including legendary actions in the CR. I mean sure, if I don't count 1/3 of a creatures damage in the CR calc, that will make the CR lower, but that is also just lying about the CR of the monster.

Epic Monsters are weak for a few reasons:

• There CR is to low (don't do enough damage primarily)
• They don't have enough movement options
• They don't have tips and tricks to deal with player abilities.
• They don't have enough interesting abilities

Your method might help solve the first one, but it doesn't anything about the rest of them. The first method can be handled by just upping the CR too.

• I like combining a move action with an attack. Plus Legendary Abilities are also a good place to include an out of turn, Move based option.
• You can't cater for every trick the players will pull, so flip the script and make them worried about the monsters instead. What I like to do is give the monster some sort of combination/follow-up attack. A very simple example of what I mean is lets say a monster has a tail attack that knocks a target prone; then I'd also give the monster a different attack that is more dangerous versus prone targets.
• Unique game mechanic interactions really make a monster stand out. But its can be tricky to keep coming up with them for every monster. I'll have lots of monster building advice in the book for people to help them build their own unique epic creations.

No, I don't agree with that perspective. That is to meta IMO. They are what they are, nothing more or less. The CR should reflect that.

Two same CR monsters, one with LA and one without, the attacks of the one without will deal far more damage.

I have no idea what that means, I guess I will have to wait and see!

No point me typing out the whole book in this thread.

My real question is: are tagging or noting your monsters in some way so that it is clear that they are not standard or legendary monsters? Are you calling your version of Legendary Actions something else, like I feel you should?

No I am just calling them Legendary actions.

I just think you are wrong on that, based on my experience. So I will need to adjsut your CRs for my use. But I typically used custom epic monsters anyway.

I doubt there are many epic games that completely use the rules as written.

Well that is obviously not how it works RAW, but it your system and you can do what you want. Just be clear that it is your system please.

You don't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

This doesn't seem like a response to my question so I will be a bit more clear. With your monsters are Legendary Actions that cause damage a Primary factor? If not, why not?

No they are not counted as Primary Factors even if they cause damage. I'm gradually baking LA into the CR so every creature will get them.

The difference (as I see it) is approximately +4.1% per CR, so completely negligible returns, which PC immortals will also benefit from.

That is a bit disappointing, but I get that it makes design easier.

Why would you ever make the design more difficult...always best to keep it simple.

Yep, I look forward to looking it over. Good luck finishing it up!

Still going to be a few months hard work - I'll let you know when its nearly ready.

OK, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking generally, not specifically. In terms of 5e currently (not with your changes to CR), this is what I did (so this is what felt right to me):

Demon Lords: CR 21-30
Demon Princes: CR 31-35

Demigods: CR 21-25
Lesser gods: CR 26-30
Intermediate gods: CR 31-35
Greater gods: CR 36-40

Seems perfectly feasible, fractionally higher than my own, albeit (as we are discussing) my CR will be about 20% tougher.

For me personally, pretty much yes. In my epic rules, mortals will have basically 0 chance without divine intervention to take on a demon prince.

I agree with you to an extent, however...

If you set them beyond the capabilities of a Level 20 Party then there is no point having stats for them unless you are allowing PCs to ascend beyond 20th.

In terms of standard 5e I would say 4-5 typical lvl 20 PCs can't take down a demon prince. If you get 7+ and/or have exceptional equipment: artifacts, boons, etc., then there is at least a chance.

For me, being 20th level isn't enough. You need to be an exception level 20 band of heroes to take down a demon prince.

I have studied CR and in my opinion any encounter with a deity/demon prince etc. on their home plane will be approx. 50% higher (as a rule of thumb) than simply facing the being as a solo monster.

So a final fight against CR 26 Orcus (in his lair with allies) would be around the equivalent of a CR 39 monster...a final fight against CR 36 Zeus would be about CR 54!

A seasoned Level 20 Party might (just barely) defeat a CR 26* Orcus in the Prime Material plane, but they won't beat him in the Abyss, when he is prepped and on his home turf.

*with my damage numbers.

I'm sure you will and I can't wait. Keep up the good work!

Will do buddy.

 

[Upper_Krust]

OK, that makes more sense now.

Because what you are doing is foundationally different than what the standard game assumes. In 5e Legendary Actions are counted as part of the CR. That damage or effect is Primary to use your words. You are treating them differently. You don't need to change the mechanics, just call them Epic Actions or Paragon Actions or whatever. That makes it very clear that though very similar, these should be treated differently because they are different. It seems like such an obvious solution that really solves most, if not all, of my issues with your system that I am not sure why you are hung up on holding onto the Legendary Action name.

You can say that you don't think LA should be Primary, but the standard game assumes they are. If you are changing that assumption, why not just give it a different name. You can end all confusion in one swoop.

As noted in my previous post, by my calculations the difference made by Legendary Actions* is +4.1% per CR

*when you bake them in from the start.

Added to which Immortal PCs will also get them.

So its nothing to worry about.

 

[dave2008]

As noted in my previous post, by my calculations the difference made by Legendary Actions* is +4.1% per CR

*when you bake them in from the start.

Added to which Immortal PCs will also get them.

So its nothing to worry about.

But it is not just LA, you have previously stated you are adjust CR by about 20% - that is something to worry about.

Look, you don't get, that is OK. Frustrating, but OK. I will drop the subject.

 

[dave2008]

Hey buddy!

Good morning!

• I like combining a move action with an attack. Plus Legendary Abilities are also a good place to include an out of turn, Move based option.
• You can't cater for every trick the players will pull, so flip the script and make them worried about the monsters instead. What I like to do is give the monster some sort of combination/follow-up attack. A very simple example of what I mean is lets say a monster has a tail attack that knocks a target prone; then I'd also give the monster a different attack that is more dangerous versus prone targets.
• Unique game mechanic interactions really make a monster stand out. But its can be tricky to keep coming up with them for every monster. I'll have lots of monster building advice in the book for people to help them build their own unique epic creations.

I agree with all of the above and I do the same things.

Two same CR monsters, one with LA and one without, the attacks of the one without will deal far more damage.

Not necessarily. I have designed monsters, and so has WotC, with LA that don't follow that format. Again, it is a monster design issue, not an LA issue. And that is still a meta viewpoint. For instance, any weapon using monster, with or without LA, has attacks based on weapon type & STR/DEX mod. That holds true whether they have LA or not.

No point me typing out the whole book in this thread.


No I am just calling them Legendary actions.


I doubt there are many epic games that completely use the rules as written.


You don't make an omelette without breaking eggs.


No they are not counted as Primary Factors even if they cause damage. I'm gradually baking LA into the CR so every creature will get them.

The difference (as I see it) is approximately +4.1% per CR, so completely negligible returns, which PC immortals will also benefit from.

Like I said in my response to your other post, you don't get it and I will stop fighting for it. I believe honesty/clarity is the best, but you don't even see how your being dishonest/unclear, so I will drop it. Ultimately it is just a silly game. No need for me to get so worked up.

Why would you ever make the design more difficult...always best to keep it simple.

More interesting design, more thematically appropriate abilities for the monster, more fun. There are lots of reasons to make some different.

Still going to be a few months hard work - I'll let you know when its nearly ready.

Good luck!

Seems perfectly feasible, fractionally higher than my own, albeit (as we are discussing) my CR will be about 20% tougher.

I agree with you to an extent, however...

If you set them beyond the capabilities of a Level 20 Party then there is no point having stats for them unless you are allowing PCs to ascend beyond 20th.

Well, yes that is what I am doing. Similar to the I in BECMI, PCs are basically starting a new game with my rules. I am not pretending to be 5e anymore.

However, I will always believe it is OK to stat monsters that the PCs have 0% chance of defeating. I do it because it is interesting to me, an others, not because it is something a PC must be able to kill.

I have studied CR and in my opinion any encounter with a deity/demon prince etc. on their home plane will be approx. 50% higher (as a rule of thumb) than simply facing the being as a solo monster.

So a final fight against CR 26 Orcus (in his lair with allies) would be around the equivalent of a CR 39 monster...a final fight against CR 36 Zeus would be about CR 54!

A seasoned Level 20 Party might (just barely) defeat a CR 26* Orcus in the Prime Material plane, but they won't beat him in the Abyss, when he is prepped and on his home turf.

*with my damage numbers.

Sounds good. Just wanted to clarify that was talking about solo fight (PCs vs demon) with a demon prince not on its home plane.

Will do buddy.

 

[le Redoutable]

I have threats in this book that can destroy a planet, so it will be up to the (PCs) heroes to save the day, one way or another.

do you use Structural Damage in your " Road to Hell " system of values ?

 

[le Redoutable]

still easy :
how can you get persuaded that you're on the Real World and not under the control of a Matrix system ?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Morning dave2008 buddy!

But it is not just LA, you have previously stated you are adjust CR by about 20% - that is something to worry about.

When you ignore secondary features (which I do as it makes the monsters an actual threat for their CR parallel to the PCs) then CR is approx. 20% lower than usual.

Also my quick Encounter Tip is to convert the party to its own CR and then design encounters as sum CR.

ie. Your epic party may count as CR 24 (themselves), and I'll outline the parameters for Easy*, Moderate, Hard, Deadly and Suicidal.

*There are no easy encounters at epic level.

Look, you don't get, that is OK. Frustrating, but OK. I will drop the subject.

I understand you are saying my CRs don't correlate with those of WotCs...but in my opinion that's a good thing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Good morning!

Hey amigo!

Not necessarily. I have designed monsters, and so has WotC, with LA that don't follow that format. Again, it is a monster design issue, not an LA issue. And that is still a meta viewpoint. For instance, any weapon using monster, with or without LA, has attacks based on weapon type & STR/DEX mod. That holds true whether they have LA or not.

If you balance two monsters to the same power, then the one with Legendary Abilities will deal less damage (assuming it deals any damage with the Legendary Abilities I suppose you could argue).

Like I said in my response to your other post, you don't get it and I will stop fighting for it. I believe honesty/clarity is the best, but you don't even see how your being dishonest/unclear, so I will drop it. Ultimately it is just a silly game. No need for me to get so worked up.

Its D&D mate, no point getting worked up about it.

You can reserve the right to say "see I warned you Krusty" or "okay you were right all along Krust" when you read the book.

More interesting design, more thematically appropriate abilities for the monster, more fun. There are lots of reasons to make some different.

Always good to develop strong themes for monsters and at least a few of their allies.

Good luck!

Thanks, I'll take all the luck I can get at this point.

Well, yes that is what I am doing. Similar to the I in BECMI, PCs are basically starting a new game with my rules. I am not pretending to be 5e anymore.

Nothing to be worried about, but instead something to be embraced.

However, I will always believe it is OK to stat monsters that the PCs have 0% chance of defeating. I do it because it is interesting to me, an others, not because it is something a PC must be able to kill.

Certainly you can do it and it might be fun for you, but it has no utility factor for a DM.

It would be pointless of me to fill the book with gods and monsters the players have no chance of defeating even though probably half of my monsters would likely give sub-20+ level PCs almost zero chance of victory (unless they become immortals themselves).

Sounds good. Just wanted to clarify that was talking about solo fight (PCs vs demon) with a demon prince not on its home plane.

Okay.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy leRedoutable!

do you use Structural Damage in your " Road to Hell " system of values ?

I have a section on Gods vs. Nukes that outlines how much damage is needed to destroy cities, mountains, planets, galaxies etc.