Hey buddy!
That has nothing to do with including legendary actions in the CR. I mean sure, if I don't count 1/3 of a creatures damage in the CR calc, that will make the CR lower, but that is also just lying about the CR of the monster.
Epic Monsters are weak for a few reasons:
- There CR is to low (don't do enough damage primarily)
- They don't have enough movement options
- They don't have tips and tricks to deal with player abilities.
- They don't have enough interesting abilities
Your method might help solve the first one, but it doesn't anything about the rest of them. The first method can be handled by just upping the CR too.
- I like combining a move action with an attack. Plus Legendary Abilities are also a good place to include an out of turn, Move based option.
- You can't cater for every trick the players will pull, so flip the script and make them worried about the monsters instead. What I like to do is give the monster some sort of combination/follow-up attack. A very simple example of what I mean is lets say a monster has a tail attack that knocks a target prone; then I'd also give the monster a different attack that is more dangerous versus prone targets.
- Unique game mechanic interactions really make a monster stand out. But its can be tricky to keep coming up with them for every monster. I'll have lots of monster building advice in the book for people to help them build their own unique epic creations.
No, I don't agree with that perspective. That is to meta IMO. They are what they are, nothing more or less. The CR should reflect that.
Two same CR monsters, one with LA and one without, the attacks of the one without will deal far more damage.
I have no idea what that means, I guess I will have to wait and see!
No point me typing out the whole book in this thread.
My real question is: are tagging or noting your monsters in some way so that it is clear that they are not standard or legendary monsters? Are you calling your version of Legendary Actions something else, like I feel you should?
No I am just calling them Legendary actions.
I just think you are wrong on that, based on my experience. So I will need to adjsut your CRs for my use. But I typically used custom epic monsters anyway.
I doubt there are many epic games that completely use the rules as written.
Well that is obviously not how it works RAW, but it your system and you can do what you want. Just be clear that it is your system please.
You don't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
This doesn't seem like a response to my question so I will be a bit more clear. With your monsters are Legendary Actions that cause damage a Primary factor? If not, why not?
No they are not counted as Primary Factors even if they cause damage. I'm gradually baking LA into the CR so every creature will get them.
The difference (as I see it) is approximately +4.1% per CR, so completely negligible returns, which PC immortals will also benefit from.
That is a bit disappointing, but I get that it makes design easier.
Why would you ever make the design more difficult...always best to keep it simple.
Yep, I look forward to looking it over. Good luck finishing it up!
Still going to be a few months hard work - I'll let you know when its nearly ready.
OK, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking generally, not specifically. In terms of 5e currently (not with your changes to CR), this is what I did (so this is what felt right to me):
Demon Lords: CR 21-30
Demon Princes: CR 31-35
Demigods: CR 21-25
Lesser gods: CR 26-30
Intermediate gods: CR 31-35
Greater gods: CR 36-40
Seems perfectly feasible, fractionally higher than my own, albeit (as we are discussing) my CR will be about 20% tougher.
For me personally, pretty much yes. In my epic rules, mortals will have basically 0 chance without divine intervention to take on a demon prince.
I agree with you to an extent, however...
If you set them beyond the capabilities of a Level 20 Party then there is no point having stats for them unless you are allowing PCs to ascend beyond 20th.
In terms of standard 5e I would say 4-5 typical lvl 20 PCs can't take down a demon prince. If you get 7+ and/or have exceptional equipment: artifacts, boons, etc., then there is at least a chance.
For me, being 20th level isn't enough. You need to be an exception level 20 band of heroes to take down a demon prince.
I have studied CR and in my opinion any encounter with a deity/demon prince etc. on their home plane will be approx. 50% higher (as a rule of thumb) than simply facing the being as a solo monster.
So a final fight against CR 26 Orcus (in his lair with allies) would be around the equivalent of a CR 39 monster...a final fight against CR 36 Zeus would be about CR 54!
A seasoned Level 20 Party might (just barely) defeat a CR 26* Orcus in the Prime Material plane, but they won't beat him in the Abyss, when he is prepped and on his home turf.
*with my damage numbers.
I'm sure you will and I can't wait. Keep up the good work!
Will do buddy.