D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Love how we are back at the "this isn't a real problem, you young people just hate DnD" stage of the discussion. We got a whole 24 hours of progress, so I guess by page 300 we might make a little more.

We've gotten to the fun stage of:

"This really isn't a problem, but if you have to have this mythic martial in then you must design it under these highly restrictive parameters to satisfy me even though I don't want it and will never use this class"

Fun times.

 

[Emberashh]

We've gotten to the fun stage of:

"This really isn't a problem, but if you have to have this mythic martial in then you must design it under these highly restrictive parameters to satisfy me even though I don't want it and will never use this class"

Fun times.

I could say this is the stage where people erroneously consider any notion that the problem isn't as severe as proposed is the same thing as saying there is no problem, and the stage where people just skirt around or outright ignore the genre problem rather than address it.

 

[Yaarel]

true but also the limited DND concept of strength leaves out that the Gymnast's Abdominal, leg and other specific muscles are far far stronger than that fighter with a 16 strength who can break jaws with one punch. That guy in a real world scenario would be on the carpet crying after 15 minutes of trying to keep up.

Yeah. A difference between a Weightlifting skill and an Athletics skill is, the Weightlifting skill would include breaking things.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

No one is "combat all day long". I have never, in 30+ years of gaming, seen an unlimited encounter day. The spellcasters drive rests. You rest when the characters with meaningful resources are low. And even if you didn't fighters dont have unlimited HP. But lets say they did... being ready for a theoretical 15th fight in a day which never occurs isn't meaningful. Its like how monks seemingly spent a decent chunk of their power budget on "not needing gear" as if the party spends so much time captured and stripped naked that's a worthy exchange.

Casters are powerful, versatile, and by benefit of having codified abilities not dependent on the DM dependent "make it up!", fairly straightforward. And they still get "make it up" as an option. Even fully drained of resources, if the mages in your group can't figure out something useful with cantrips and rituals then I don't know what to say.

Yep, the go all day stuff is high highly overvalued. As we have seen with cantrips. How many spells levels did the Wizards have to give up to get their always on cantrips? Right.

It's not worth nothing, but it is not worth a lot either.

 

[Yaarel]

Yep, the go all day stuff is high highly overvalued. As we have seen with cantrips. How many spells levels did the Wizards have to give up to get their always on cantrips? Right.

It's not worth nothing, but it is not worth a lot either.

How good an always on power is depends on the power.

At-will 1d6 damage? Less good.

At-will teleportation? Very powerful.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I could say this is the stage where people erroneously consider any notion that the problem isn't as severe as proposed is the same thing as saying there is no problem, and the stage where people just skirt around or outright ignore the genre problem rather than address it.

What genre problem? That the superhero like martial shouldn't be in the game at high levels?

This is all predicated on spellcasters remaining the same. D&D has chosen a supers like high level magic user that is more like Dr. Strange than any fantasy archtypes -- extreme power, versatility, reliability at no personal cost. That indicates what kind of game it is.

Many people on this thread would love a total redesign of spellcasters and spellcasting but that's a different topic (my preferred solution to this whole thing). By given the assumption that this won't happen, put in the mythic martial.

Keep the existing Fighter and put in a mythic martial that is no more powerful and versatile than the existing Wizard. I haven't seen any reasonable objection to this.

 

[Yaarel]

Keep the existing Fighter and put in a mythic martial that is no more powerful and versatile than the existing Wizard. I haven't seen any reasonable objection to this.

Dont forget, this mythic Fighter would be dealing less damage ... as much damage as a Wizard deals.

That said. Adding lateral versatility isnt necessarily a boost in power, especially when it is for the sake of balancing noncombat encounters.

 

[Emberashh]

I haven't seen any reasonable objection to this.

How about "doubling down in class disparities is not a solution"?

What genre problem? That the superhero like martial shouldn't be in the game at high levels?

That jacked up Martials and Casters violate the genre of the game considerably and this isn't rectified without entirely rewriting the game to accomodate a new genre properly.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Dont forget, this mythic Fighter would be dealing less damage ... as much damage as a Wizard deals.

Sure, as long as it can choose like the WizardsSometimes the Wizard does less damage, sometimes the Wizard does a lot of damage.

Plus who are we kidding -- I don't think the mythic martial will ever have the range of utility and versatility that the Wizard has. Just trying to get closer so there probably is room for a little more damage to compensate.

 

[Yaarel]

How about "doubling down in class disparities is not a solution"?

That jacked up Martials and Casters violate the genre of the game considerably and this isn't rectified without entirely rewriting the game to accomodate a new genre properly.

I honestly dont understand your perspective.

For example, do you think that the Rune Knight is "entirely rewriting the game to accommodate a new genre", because it can come across as a superhero with a superpower?

A mythic warrior would be equally magical, albeit the magic would probably be less flashy.