D&D General 0 HP Magic Missile = Death?

[Reynard]

not according to JC.

That answer doesn't actually address the question asked. The question is: when do you pick targets for the spell? The PHB does not actually say. I can see the logic of choosing targets as each blast resolves (and even moving between them*), since that is how extra attack works, but it would be nice if they had addressed it.

*ETA: This is not true. the rule specifies weapon attacks in order to break up movement between attack rolls.

 

[TheSword]

TheSword said:
Would you make a wizard affected by it take 3 concentration checks?



The fun is that the Wizard is more likely to have Shield to protect himself, but the BBEG won’t have Shield! So net advantage for the players!

Overall those nasty tricks from DM work a few sessions, after that players adjust their play and eventually screw the DM with his own tricks.

Sure. Of course if you’re one of the half dozen other caster that isn’t a wizard, probably won’t be much fun for you.

Shield is already an overused spell - it doesn’t need to be even more essential.

 

[TheSword]

Ultimately this decision comes down to a question of whether you want Magic missile to be able to kill PCs quickly.

Death saves are almost never applied to NPCs or Monsters. When they die they die. So this ruling is only going to be used on PC characters to justify them dying. Ignoring that by focussing on semantics is just passing the buck onto the rules for a decision that is in the DMs control.

If a 20d6 meteor swarm can’t kill a player in one round I’m more than a little bemused that some DMs would want three 1d4+1 magic missiles to automatically do it. It’s not a ‘trick’ it’s an exploit.

So your players aren’t going to want this, as it kills them faster. DMs that don’t actively seek player death aren’t going to want this. It’s a small number of DMs that try to actively kill players. It falls into the camp of attacking downed players to my mind and is almost always poor form.

 

[Stormonu]

Eh, anyone else just think the three failed saves rule is itself the problem? Or, that the saves caused by damage don’t care about the amount of damage? Three one point hits have the same effect as three d8 hits.

I know this gets us out of rules interpretations. Also, it gets away from the “only spells and effects that moody saving throws” idea. But favored design ideas are made to be broken. Bashed, stomped, and ground into dust. When a rule admits to interpretive problems, that’s a sign that the problem is the rule itself.

TomB

It does at times make me just want to go back to using negative hit points - but that has its own issues too.

 

[M_Natas]

Ultimately this decision comes down to a question of whether you want Magic missile to be able to kill PCs quickly.

Death saves are almost never applied to NPCs or Monsters. When they die they die. So this ruling is only going to be used on PC characters to justify them dying. Ignoring that by focussing on semantics is just passing the buck onto the rules for a decision that is in the DMs control.

If a 20d6 meteor swarm can’t kill a player in one round I’m more than a little bemused that some DMs would want three 1d4+1 magic missiles to automatically do it. It’s not a ‘trick’ it’s an exploit.

So your players aren’t going to want this, as it kills them faster. DMs that don’t actively seek player death aren’t going to want this. It’s a small number of DMs that try to actively kill players. It falls into the camp of attacking downed players to my mind and is almost always poor form.

On principle I would agree that a low level spell shouldn't be better than a high level spell.
But you can have the same effect with any spell or attack ability that allows you to attack several times in a round.
Eldritch Blast, scorching Ray, multiattack, extra attack, furry of Blows... and a monk with 4 attacks and advantage to hit will definitely make at least two hits (so two critical hits, so insta killing the target).

 

[TheSword]

On principle I would agree that a low level spell shouldn't be better than a high level spell.
But you can have the same effect with any spell or attack ability that allows you to attack several times in a round.
Eldritch Blast, scorching Ray, multiattack, extra attack, furry of Blows... and a monk with 4 attacks and advantage to hit will definitely make at least two hits (so two critical hits, so insta killing the target).

And all those examples require attack rolls which are a fundamental balancing factor. Attacks are also much more limited in a round that magic missiles.

If the DM wants to kill a downed PC by having a multi-attack NPC or monster repeatedly attack them… well that’s on the DM. I have no idea why we would want to broaden that any more than absolutely necessary.

Magic missile works absolutely fine by splitting the dice as desired and then pooling the results. It’s worked fine that way for years. I cannot see any earthly advantage anyone gets by changing that.

 

[Reynard]

Magic missile works absolutely fine by splitting the dice as desired and then pooling the results. It’s worked fine that way for years. I cannot see any earthly advantage anyone gets by changing that.

I have always run MM as individual damage, so I am not "changing" anything. Even people that "pool" the damage were likely just doing it for ease, since there was no particular reason in most previous editions to worry about whether the damage was individual or total. Overcoming DR would have been one but spells did that automatically anyway. It is the 5E death and concentration rules that mean we have to revisit the idea.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Also what the rules actually say and whether one wants to run it that way are two separate questions.

 

[M_Natas]

And all those examples require attack rolls which are a fundamental balancing factor. Attacks are also much more limited in a round that magic missiles.

If the DM wants to kill a downed PC by having a multi-attack NPC or monster repeatedly attack them… well that’s on the DM. I have no idea why we would want to broaden that any more than absolutely necessary.

Magic missile works absolutely fine by splitting the dice as desired and then pooling the results. It’s worked fine that way for years. I cannot see any earthly advantage anyone gets by changing that.

Unless wie are talking very High AC characters, attacking an unconscious character is easy peasy.
Also using multiattack or extra attack or Eldritch Blast (disputed by some) to attack once, see the result, than attack a second time, see the result, attack a third Time when needed.
So not using Magic Missle not only has drawbacks.

 

[Oofta]

Unless wie are talking very High AC characters, attacking an unconscious character is easy peasy.
Also using multiattack or extra attack or Eldritch Blast (disputed by some) to attack once, see the result, than attack a second time, see the result, attack a third Time when needed.
So not using Magic Missle not only has drawbacks.

Any attack against an unconscious creature has advantage and if made within 5 feet of the creature any hit is a critical. Critical hits cause 2 failed death saves.

It's easy to take out unconscious PCs if you're attacking, it only takes 2 hits.