D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Pauln6]

The rogue is probably my favourite class. As someone who played thieves in 1e, the 5e rogue is a huge amount of fun. I never expected and would never want rogues to be top tier dpr. I think people who played 4e mistakenly believed that was the rogue's intended role but 4e was an outlier. Rogues are versatile but they aren't really designed to be huge damage dealers. Leave that for less versatile classes.

 

[Stalker0]

I was curious myself, so let me take a quick look at 5th level (which to me tends to be a very common level for my games and where a lot of the classes "fully come online").

Not optimizing for damage too much, lets look at a Thief Rogue, a Champion Fighter, and a Bear Totem Barbarian....some standard fare.

All classes will have 18 in their main stat. I'll assume 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to normally crit (though there are things here that modify that). So 65% to hit in total.

Fighter has Dueling Mastery and Sap on a longsword with improved critical.

Rogue goes with a Rapier/Scimitar (Vex/Nick). I'll assume steady aim for the first attack advantage, than check vex for adv on the second attack. the rogue will be near someone so its all sneak attack. The Nick will allow us to TWF each round even with the bonus action spent on steady aim.

Barbarian goes with rage, reckless attack, greatsword with graze. (interesting note btw, I just realized that Graze damage gets rage damage applied to it, as you are still doing damage with that weapon).

So the fighter represents a bit more of a defensive build, with the barb a more offensive.

I ran it through a sim with 100k runs to help with the vex and sneak attack parts that can be a bit tricky to do in math:

Level 5 DPR, 18 in main stat
Barbarian: 25.6
Fighter: 14.6
Rogue: 22.3

So take that as you will.

People ask me to push the analysis into some higher levels so here we go.

Level 7 (only real change is the Rogue's increased SA).
Barbarian: 25.6
Fighter: 14.6
Rogue: 26.7

Level 9 (everyone has 20 in stat, more Rogue SA, Barb Rage +3 now. Fighters get weapon mastery, but that's mainly going to be for things like push or topple with a longsword)

Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 15.8
Rogue: 31.0

Level 11 (Rogue 6d6 SA, Fighter x3 attacks)
Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 23.8
Rogue: 34.4

Level 13 (Rogue 7d6 SA, Fighter Studied Attacks)
Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 26.4
Rogue: 37.7


Seems that if the rogue gets consistent sneak attack they are doing solid round to round damage.

 

[Mistwell]

Treantmonk's brief data point for Rogue at 13th level (same level he chose for all classes) went as follows:

Species: Any Dex 17 at level 1
Weapon Masteries: Shortbow, Scimitar (Nick) (could have gone sword with Vex but opted against it due to issues with calculating DPR)
First Level Feat: open (Lucky, Tough, etc.) (No DPR impact assumed)
Fourth Level Feat: Sentinel (Dex 18) (Assumes some reaction attacks with sneak attack sometimes)
Eighth Level Feat: Charger (Dex 19) (+1d8 on first attack)
Tenth level Feat: Skulker (Dex 20) (no DPR impact other than Dex)
Subclass Assassin

Average damage per round came out to 46.5 spread over four rounds of combat (though first round does meaningfully more than later rounds due to Assassinate and Charger, and he spread this over all four rounds rather than counting it just in round 1).

This does not include poisoning the enemy. If you poison them, that's even better.

Here was the most recent DPR calculation I found, though I think there might have been one more and I will look for that shortly. Baseline is a standard Warlock, not optimized for pact of blade. I know Monk is not here, and I know he was very impressed with the Monk changes and will at some point at that. I also know he thought Pact of the Blade was a bit broken and likely to get a fix. Seemed like he thought the average damage for non-casters is around 50, with this rogue coming in around 3.5 short of that not including poisoning.

 

[Stalker0]

Weapon Masteries: Shortbow, Scimitar (Nick) (could have gone sword with Vex but opted against it due to issues with calculating DPR)

I think most rogues will want nick personally, there are just so many uses for a rogue's bonus action, not having to use it for TWF is just great for any melee style.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think most rogues will want nick personally, there are just so many uses for a rogue's bonus action, not having to use it for TWF is just great for any melee style.

You don’t have to choose one or the other. The way nick is worded, only one of your weapons needs to have it, which means the optimal combination for dual wielding will be shortsword + scimitar ( or rapier + scimitar if you have the dual wielder feat).

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I would just give them an extra feat at level 6 in the base class instead of level 10. That helps a bit.

Yep. Would have nice symmetry with the Fighter. Lv6 being 'put Expertise into two skills that you didn't deem important enough the first time' just isn't that exciting.

 

[Remathilis]

A lv6-7 subclass feature like everyone else gets?

No. Unified subclass progression gave playtesters a sad.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

The way nick is worded, only one of your weapons needs to have it, which means the optimal combination for dual wielding will be shortsword + scimitar ( or rapier + scimitar if you have the dual wielder feat).

And the way Light property is worded, you don't even have to be dual-wielding, but can hold a shield up (with your Fighter multiclass) while you stab someone with your Vex weapon, then switch weapons and get your free Nick attack with the same hand (with Dueling dmg boost to both of them).

Hmm. This actually runs into un/equip issues in the second round, so maybe you do want two Nick weapons and just switch between them.

 

[mellored]

Seems that if the rogue gets consistent sneak attack they are doing solid round to round damage.

That's my quick analysis too.

Rogue, assuming sneak attack, is in line with the others. Exact amount will vary with what builds your comparing it too.

The only real standout is the blade warlock. Which is easy enough to fix by keeping Thirsting Blade at 2 attacks and scaling Lifedrinker instead.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Treantmonk's brief data point for Rogue at 13th level (same level he chose for all classes) went as follows:

Species: Any Dex 17 at level 1
Weapon Masteries: Shortbow, Scimitar (Nick) (could have gone sword with Vex but opted against it due to issues with calculating DPR)
First Level Feat: open (Lucky, Tough, etc.) (No DPR impact assumed)
Fourth Level Feat: Sentinel (Dex 18) (Assumes some reaction attacks with sneak attack sometimes)
Eighth Level Feat: Charger (Dex 19) (+1d8 on first attack)
Tenth level Feat: Skulker (Dex 20) (no DPR impact other than Dex)
Subclass Assassin

Average damage per round came out to 46.5 spread over four rounds of combat (though first round does meaningfully more than later rounds due to Assassinate and Charger, and he spread this over all four rounds rather than counting it just in round 1).

This does not include poisoning the enemy. If you poison them, that's even better.

Here was the most recent DPR calculation I found, though I think there might have been one more and I will look for that shortly. Baseline is a standard Warlock, not optimized for pact of blade. I know Monk is not here, and I know he was very impressed with the Monk changes and will at some point at that. I also know he thought Pact of the Blade was a bit broken and likely to get a fix. Seemed like he thought the average damage for non-casters is around 50, with this rogue coming in around 3.5 short of that not including poisoning.

Ok, this isn't up-to-date but it's good to have some numbers to work with. However, I would describe this as a different situation than the one you described here and here.

Yes, the DPR-specced Rogue is above the baseline, but the DPR-specced Rogue is not "near the top of damage," they are almost dead last among martials, slightly above the Devotion Paladin, which isn't the most DPR-specced Paladin subclass. The DPR-specced Barbarian from Playtest 7 is 26% above the Assassin Rogue; the Playtest 8 version would be more so, since they can Rage more often and Brutal Strike gives them a pseudo-Power Attack and happens more often than Brutal Critical did. I'd also note that the Battlemaster Fighter would be a lot higher than the Champion.