D&D 5E 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that excels against flying enemies

[Asisreo]

I feel that people over exaggerate the 4-element monk problems because they put stuff on paper and make a snap judgement or read someone's online blog and be completely convinced.

I know there's the Kensei monk with their Kensei weapon and Sun Soul monk with their Radiant sun bolt but they are still only a roundabout means against a monk's primary damage dealing.

Monks excel in melee and while longbows and sun bolts can be impromptu ways to engage flying or distant enemies, 4-Element monks excel at bringing a character back to eye-level with the monk.

Water whip and Unbroken Air, while an action, is able to do decent damage with the chance to knock them prone. Now they've taken the fall damage and it's possible to do other things to it like stunning strike or use the other parts of your base monk's abilities like flurry of blows. You can even prepare them using Ready to attack a flyby enemy, though most are forced to stay within 30ft to effectively swoop anyways.

They also have AoE spells from a distance which can, again, target multiple targets that are in the air. Even a Radiant Soul can't target with AoE.

The main complaint I hear about monks are the Ki point expenditure. But honestly, most DM's complain they aren't able to fulfill the regular adventuring day's encounter number, so Ki points are able to be used more safely.

On the other hand, in a full adventuring day, you're assumed to have at least 2 short rests so it's fair to effectively triple the amount of Ki Points you have.

If you don't use all your Ki Points before the next short rest, you've wasted them. They could've gone into a flurry of blows or a shape water but now they're just wasted, having done nothing. Using Ki points isn't something to fear and having more options to expend them means they make more meaningful effects in combat and isn't thrown away.

 

[jaelis]

Yes, of the PHB subclasses, the 4E monk is the only one with ranged capability. However, their ranged capability is still quite weak compared to that of other classes, like an archer fighter or an actual spell caster. So I think its a situation where the subclass gives up some effectiveness in melee combat, where monks are generally good, but doesn't get enough ranged effectiveness to really be all that useful at it.

Or to put it differently: if you had to be a monk and deal with distant enemies, 4E would be your only choice. But that doesn't make it a good choice.

 

[Asisreo]

Yes, of the PHB subclasses, the 4E monk is the only one with ranged capability. However, their ranged capability is still quite weak compared to that of other classes, like an archer fighter or an actual spell caster. So I think its a situation where the subclass gives up some effectiveness in melee combat, where monks are generally good, but doesn't get enough ranged effectiveness to really be all that useful at it.

Or to put it differently: if you had to be a monk and deal with distant enemies, 4E would be your only choice. But that doesn't make it a good choice.

It's not necessarily to just deal with them. It's to bring them into melee rather than having to rely on ranged. Of course, you can always take a different class but different classes don't get the combination of unarmored defense, evasion, stunning strike, and magical extra attacks.

And I think this distinction is important. You didn't go into 4-Elements to be more effective at range than a spellcaster, you go into it to have the melee effectiveness and tankiness of a monk while having options in ranged and flying situations. Fullcasters are great but they don't have the natural tanky ability of a monk. Kensei is okay but a bow fighter may be better for pure damage (based on the number of attacks you get, I don't know for sure, though) and battlemaster would be more effective using a bow.

Sun soul is great but it can't do anything to a 35ft high enemy until 11th level as opposed to 4-E monks that get 60ft range options at level 6 (shatter and hold person). Hold person is also really good for making a spellcaster drop concentration if they're flying or out of reach.

 

[jaelis]

But kensei gets a good ranged option without giving up any melee capability. And don't underestimate using Step of the Wind with sun soul to get into range.

But sure, 5E can cast hold person. At 6th-level, and they sacrifice half their potential stunning blows to do it. And if you picked that and water whip, then you are back to having nothing to do when the enemy flying 50 feet away isn't a humanoid. I think you are just much better off having a wizard or cleric around to cast hold person instead and saving your ki for when it is more effective.

That said I do like water whip. If there were a few more disciplines that good I would like the subclass better.

 

[Asisreo]

But kensei gets a good ranged option without giving up any melee capability. And don't underestimate using Step of the Wind with sun soul to get into range.

But sure, 5E can cast hold person. At 6th-level, and they sacrifice half their potential stunning blows to do it. And if you picked that and water whip, then you are back to having nothing to do when the enemy flying 50 feet away isn't a humanoid. I think you are just much better off having a wizard or cleric around to cast hold person instead and saving your ki for when it is more effective.

That said I do like water whip. If there were a few more disciplines that good I would like the subclass better.

Kensei doesn't give up melee abilities but it's basically an all-or-nothing. Think about combos in a fighting game. Some moves are good at neutral due to frame data and others are good for hit-confirms and combos. Kensei has good "Frame Data" as they don't expend much to be effective in a neutral environment (using decent ranged options) but they have to continuously use their weaker options since they can't always commit to their better moves (stunning strike and flurry of blows and BA unarmed strikes are still higher priority than your ranged optiond).

4-element monks are combo characters that expend resources to set both them and their teammates up for better power. They can anti-air a flyer and attack on get up with their stunning strike flurry of blows combo. Uh...I mean they can knock a character prone and use their stunning strike flurry with advantage next turn to basically finish their enemy off. They can even make pillars of ice and stuff to protect themselves and teammates with battlefield control that any monk couldn't have.

It's a bit of a fallacy to compare a monk's archetype with an entire other class because the other class doesn't get the other stuff a monk can. Like I said, fullcasters usually aren't as tanky as a monk and monks are actually quite the good mage killers, too. A 4-Element monk can easily shut down a mage or archmage's flying spell.

You definitely don't build an entire character around getting hold person by going monk but it can certainly be a nice tool to have to further your "Mage Killer" status as a monk.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I don't know, it seems to me like the thematic concept of the subclass doesn't demand the ability to attack aerial foes. The subclass ought to work even if you never run into a flier. That's a general philosophy though: subclasses should primarily give you the ability to emphasize a theme or character identity, not be a mechanical one trick pony. I'm saddened that many of the newer subclasses from the last few years are getting away from an interesting assortment of features into just giving you one special mechanic and basing the subclass around it, often with little good reason to connect it to the thematic concept of the subclass.

As far as the balance of Four Elements Monk, after having followed threads in the past, I've been convinced by the arguments that just allowing them to use all their stuff as bonus actions rather than actions probably works. I think it would be nice to insert one or more of the elemental cantrips (like gust and mold earth) into their progression at some point too.

That said I do like water whip. If there were a few more disciplines that good I would like the subclass better.

Is water whip one of the ones that was originally a bonus action but got errataed to take an action?

 

[jaelis]

Is water whip one of the ones that was originally a bonus action but got errataed to take an action?

Yes, and as a bonus action it made the subclass. (Though as very much a one trick pony.)

My own fix is to reduce all the ki costs by 1, so that you can actually use the abilities without feeling so much like you are impacting your primary role. But it's not a fantastic fix, lots of people have done more complicated things. Making them bonus actions seems good too, but I guess that the ki cost is more of a barrier to use than the action economy. Not sure though.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Yes, and as a bonus action it made the subclass. (Though as very much a one trick pony.)

My own fix is to reduce all the ki costs by 1, so that you can actually use the abilities without feeling so much like you are impacting your primary role. But it's not a fantastic fix, lots of people have done more complicated things. Making them bonus actions seems good too, but I guess that the ki cost is more of a barrier to use than the action economy. Not sure though.

As I recall, the argument was basically that you are almost always better off using your ki for non-subclass uses. By changing their features to a bonus action, they now are actually worth their ki cost, and a good alternative to using the standard monk ki features.

It doesn't address the issue that your subclass basically goes away after you burn through ki, but I think adding the cantrips could.

 

[Asisreo]

I don't know, it seems to me like the thematic concept of the subclass doesn't demand the ability to attack aerial foes. The subclass ought to work even if you never run into a flier. That's a general philosophy though: subclasses should primarily give you the ability to emphasize a theme or character identity, not be a mechanical one trick pony. I'm saddened that many of the newer subclasses from the last few years are getting away from an interesting assortment of features into just giving you one special mechanic and basing the subclass around it, often with little good reason to connect it to the thematic concept of the subclass.

As far as the balance of Four Elements Monk, after having followed threads in the past, I've been convinced by the arguments that just allowing them to use all their stuff as bonus actions rather than actions probably works. I think it would be nice to insert one or more of the elemental cantrips (like gust and mold earth) into their progression at some point too.



Is water whip one of the ones that was originally a bonus action but got errataed to take an action?

I feel like flying enemies are common enough to not call them niche.

For the BA thing, that feels like a fix to something that wasn't even a main concern. All that does is bring up the damage output, possibly to very high levels. I want to remind you that the monk can spend Ki points after confirming the water whip and the ki point limit that affects spells don't affect water whip and unbroken air. You can even dump all 20 ki points into the attack.

As for Ki, again, it's hard to argue it's much of an issue since, if you're playing with 6-8 encounters, you'd have roughly triple the ki points of your level over the course of the day. Your best option, stunning strike, isn't even available to you until level 5 so the most you're spending Ki points from level 3&4 are flurry which is less cost effective than your whips (average 5 damage per ki point vs average of 8 damage per ki point with WW or UBA). And, once again, any leftover Ki is purely wasted on a short or long rest. No spell carryover even in other subclasses.

You're incentivized to use-it-or-lose-it for Ki.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I suppose if you don't have any real casters in your group, and in between levels 6 and 11 you expect to encounter a lot of enemies that fly at 35', it's a solid choice.