D&D 4E 4e vs. Paizo: Mommy, Daddy, please stop fighting!

[TarionzCousin]

Overreact much?

Obviously.

It's extremely cool to have James Jacobs posting here and giving us his honest opinions and insider information. Please leave the unwarranted attacks out of this thread. I, for one, don't want this thread closed.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

True, but that would be nothing compared to what 4E fans would do if WotC moved away from "simple to DM".

It cuts both ways.

Personally, I think the 4E designers could have easily gutted 3.5's mechanics and replaced them with something simpler yet satisfactory. They just chose to experiment wildly for whatever reason. I hope that 5E will take a step back from some of the abstract craziness 4E has introduced while retaining many of its better features.

 

[Gothmog]

True, but that would be nothing compared to what 4E fans would do if WotC moved away from "simple to DM".

It cuts both ways.

Sure, some 4e folks would react with anger if that happens, just like some Paizo fans would to Paizo producing 4e materials (there are outlier extremes in each fanbase). However, from what I've seen, most of the 4e fans wouldn't have the same issues if 5e was announced that some of the 3e fans did with the announcement of 4e and its release (I have some ideas about why this is, but its not the time or place to discuss them). Me, I don't have such a huge emotional investment into the game that I get worked up over silly things like this. I do much prefer to coherent, streamlined, simple, and well-designed rules of 4e to 3e, and 4e lets me run the kind of games my groups and I enjoy (mostly of a dark fantasy variety with lots of investigation and roleplay). Its also not that I don't like some complex systems- both GURPS and Rolemaster are great systems I've run in the past, and I'd run them again before I touched 3e or one of its offshoots. IME 3e, more than any other system out there, was just a chore to prepare and DM, and a LOT of people felt the same way- hence the changes we got with 4e (which might have swung a little too far in some ways towards simplification), but 4e is better for it IMO.

Personally, I think 5e D&D will retain the powers structure for the classes, but with a different mechanic for managing their use (not at-will, encounter, daily), and retain most of the same classes already in 4e. I think rituals will become more accessible, but not to the degree that utility spells were in 3e. I also think we'll lose healing surges, with some other mechanic for regaining hit points. Skill challenges will remain, but over the 7-10 year life of 4e, they mechanics for them will be refined further. Other than that, I predict 5e will look a LOT like a polished, refined, and improved 4e (just like 4e refined, streamlined, improved, and evolved from 3e). I figure it will also be a little more complex than 4e to run, and that suits me just fine- if 5e isn't to my taste, I'll still have 4e to play, as well as 1e/2e, or other systems. But while we have 4e, I'm going to love every second I play of it!

 

[dm4hire]

Expeditious Retreat Press is doing the 4e conversion for Freeport as liscensed to them by Green Ronin (who is also not going to 4e). Perhaps Expeditious or someone else will approach Paizo about doing the same for Pathfinder Chronicles or at least the Golarion world setting under a recognizable name. Really though all that needs to be done is conversions of the materials which can be done by players as mentioned.

 

[vagabundo]

Thanks for the clarification James.

 

[BryonD]

Sure, some 4e folks would react with anger if that happens, just like some Paizo fans would to Paizo producing 4e materials (there are outlier extremes in each fanbase). However, from what I've seen, most of the 4e fans wouldn't have the same issues if 5e was announced that some of the 3e fans did with the announcement of 4e and its release (I have some ideas about why this is, but its not the time or place to discuss them).

First, when did 5E enter the conversation?

But even with that, it greatly depends. Go dig back to the announcement. You will find posts from me consistently expressing great enthusiasm for a new edition. Quickly a lot of the conversations turned to how great it would be if 4E was like SWSE and I argued that WotC would never lower their assessment of their audience like that. And I remained enthused. As details starting working out and it turned out my assessment was wrong, my enthusiasm quickly went away. It has nothing to do with emotional investment and everything to do with standards of expectation.

And I'm quite certain that if 5E did come along with a design philosophy that they greater overplayed simplicity in 4E, then you would see wailing and gnashing off teeth in pretty much the same proportions.

That said, I wasn't talking about 5E. You said Paizo fans would go insane if Paizo supported 4E. I expect that many of them would. You are correct. I am in agreement. However, my point is that 4E fans would go just, if not more, insane, if WotC started supporting Pathfinder even while still supporting easy-to-DM 4E. WotC has vastly more resources than Paizo and could much more easily throw a bone the other way without hurting their main drive. And yet in many 4E mindsets, the smart idea is that 4E should get all of the resources of WotC plus some of the resources of Paizo. In essence they are saying that Pathfinder should be significantly impacted so that 4E can gain a blip, but 4E should not give up a single % of its backing, no matter how much that would boost Pathfinder. And yet you claim their is no emotional investment??? boggle


And to be clear I'm not really talking about either company here, and I don't think you are either. I am not calling on WotC to support Pathfinder in any slight way. They have no obligation, and should not go there for a number of reasons. That is completely cool. All I am comparing is the areas where 4E / Pathfinder *fans* emotional reactions are similar and where they are disproportionate.

Me, I don't have such a huge emotional investment into the game that I get worked up over silly things like this.

Obviously you are sufficiently emotionally invested that you see an equal and opposite situation as being heavily slanted toward people who disagree with you being markedly worse.

 

[Dannager]

And yet in many 4E mindsets, the smart idea is that 4E should get all of the resources of WotC plus some of the resources of Paizo. In essence they are saying that Pathfinder should be significantly impacted so that 4E can gain a blip

Moving away from fan reaction, the above isn't entirely accurate. To be perfectly, honest, in terms of sheer audience and ability to expand the market, I think there's a much better argument to be made for Paizo gaining a much larger "blip" from supporting 4th Edition than 4th Edition would get from having Paizo's support. Within the framework of 4th Edition, Paizo has the potential product and WotC has the potential audience. I wouldn't call the above assessment part of a "4E mindset"; I think it's a pretty demonstrable concept. Paizo, of course, isn't interested in tethering itself to another company, and that's a decision they're going to need to live with.

 

[fireinthedust]

"blips" in resources? Wtf? Friend, and I appreciate your passion in what you're saying, but I don't see how this is relevant.

we have two companies with history, drama, and finally different game systems; the merits of which are of no consequence to me as I'm already firmly 4e (though I'll likely by the PFphb at some point, or at least their best modules (I'm looking at you, tombs of the pharohs!)).

they're different games.

 

[DaveMage]

To be perfectly, honest, in terms of sheer audience and ability to expand the market, I think there's a much better argument to be made for Paizo gaining a much larger "blip" from supporting 4th Edition than 4th Edition would get from having Paizo's support.

Possibly. But then how come with 3pps, there's Goodman Games, and, well, no one else of consequence for print 4E books?

4E may be great for WotC and Goodman, but no one else seems to be getting rich from it....

 

[Crothian]

Expeditious Retreat Press is doing the 4e conversion for Freeport as liscensed to them by Green Ronin (who is also not going to 4e). Perhaps Expeditious or someone else will approach Paizo about doing the same for Pathfinder Chronicles or at least the Golarion world setting under a recognizable name. Really though all that needs to be done is conversions of the materials which can be done by players as mentioned.

If Paizo wanted they could be the ones doing the approaching.