A Humble Request: A Non-Vancian "Leader" in the PHB

[Bluenose]

It seems to me, in pretty much every fantasy bit of literature the leader of a group, calling the shots and making most decisions, coming up with plans, etc...is the guy in front with the sword...a.k.a. [traditionally] the Fighter!

And then you get people saying that the Fighters role is to Fight (it's even in the class name) and they therefore don't need any capabilities related to anything but Fighting. I want a Fighter who can do other things too, and if I'm called a Warlord to do that so be it.

I will say that sf we're going to have two styles of healer, one relying on skills and the other on magic, I particularly don't want to see the skill-based version to be strictly inferior in terms of how much and how often they can heal people. I also don't want one type giving temporary hit points compared to real hit points from real healers. And I don't want the Cleric to be reduced to a walking first-aid box, either. I won't be surprised to get all those things, mind you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am not actually sure it works so well as a Theme, since we may want to distinguish spell healing and non-magical healing. (If healing in non-magical form exist at all.)

Every character should have some means to provide out-of-combat healing, whether that's from a Heal skill, some sort of regeneration ritual, directed meditiation, or whatever.

Ideally, in-combat healing would then be treated as the abomination that it is, and thrown out of the game. However, if we simply must have it, then I would argue that the best place for it is in a Healer theme that can be taken by any class (but may be best suited for the Cleric), allowing any character to specialise in this area if desired.

Whether such a theme should be Vancian or not... I don't really care too much either way. Probably best to provide both options.

Combat without healing can be actually quite boring, at least the way D&D works. In Combat healing allows to create tense moments within a battle, as your hit points are going down and you can die - and an in-combat heal can rejevunate you. Without that, a combat can feel like a long exercise in chipping away hit points.

You don't necessarily need healing in a combat system to create such tension. In shadowrun 3E, in-combat healing wasn't that common, but people did instead spend character resources (combat pool) to avoid getting hit. That did always create tension because you never knew whether you would be able to dodge the enemy attacks or not, and if you didn't, you may suffer a serious injury that would make the combat muich harder.

4E (Shadowrun, not D&D) did unfortunately lose the resource management aspect of the various dice pools, though it retains some of it with the action economy - dodging requires now an action, so you have to make decisions whether you want to fire back or rather spend your next action to dodge.

I would prefer going back to a more metagame resource system and not just base i ton actions, especially since I always hated Shadowrun's multiple action initiative system.
[/SideNote]

 

[steeldragons]

And then you get people saying that the Fighters role is to Fight (it's even in the class name) and they therefore don't need any capabilities related to anything but Fighting. I want a Fighter who can do other things too, and if I'm called a Warlord to do that so be it.

Oh definitely. I suppose I would respond that, to me, one's ability to come up with effective tactics, bolstering one's companions and [at the risk of muddying the discussion with another 4e-ism] "controlling" the battlefield...even being able to provide first aid after the battle is done...to an extent IS/DOES fall directly in line with the Fighter's ability to Fight. I see no reason a separate/particularly niche Class should be necessary to do those things. Just all part of the training (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the character concept) of being the best at fighting.

I will say that sf we're going to have two styles of healer, one relying on skills and the other on magic, I particularly don't want to see the skill-based version to be strictly inferior in terms of how much and how often they can heal people. I also don't want one type giving temporary hit points compared to real hit points from real healers. And I don't want the Cleric to be reduced to a walking first-aid box, either. I won't be surprised to get all those things, mind you.

Yeah...I pretty much agree on all points here. "Realistically" (in the fantasy world) it would seem that "better healing via magic but limited in the number of spells one might have" vs. "less HP via mundane healing, but can be done as much/often as time and materials allow" is a fair trade off...to me, anyways. Makes a mundane healer a much more alluring additon to a party than someone who can heal once or twice a day (at low levels...and that only IF they have access to those spells).

I'm also a BIG advocate for "Domains/spheres". The god of blood and gore ought not have healing magic at all...god of war? ok, maybe some light stuff to patch up his faithful AFTER a battle...or not...god of storms or evil or commerce? I don't really see how/why they'd have healing magics...beyond (again only MAYBE) the lowest form. SO I don't really hope or want to see all Clerics everywhere being/returning to walking band-aids either.

--SD

 

[Leatherhead]

Ritual healing.

Seriously, this is the answer that everyone seems to be looking for when it comes to healing.

 

[Leatherhead]

Combat without healing can be actually quite boring, at least the way D&D works. In Combat healing allows to create tense moments within a battle, as your hit points are going down and you can die - and an in-combat heal can rejevunate you. Without that, a combat can feel like a long exercise in chipping away hit points.
[/SideNote]

They could always grab the condition track from SWSE.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Ritual healing.

Seriously, this is the answer that everyone seems to be looking for when it comes to healing.

I'd prefer healing surges, actually, even if many here are averse to the idea.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Ritual healing.

Seriously, this is the answer that everyone seems to be looking for when it comes to healing.

Okay, boom, healing is a ritual. Now what does the cleric do, and what non-Vancian class does the same thing?

 

[Leatherhead]

I'd prefer healing surges, actually, even if many here are averse to the idea.

Healing surges, in and of themselves, are not a healing mechanic. Second wind heals, resting (both short and extended) heals, potions heal, and various class powers and abilities heal. But healing surges can be used for non-healing things like extra damage on attacks or knock rituals like knock. It's one of those things that bugs me whenever anyone brings them up.

You could easily keep second wind, resting, items, and powers that heal while completely dropping healing surges. In fact, SWSE did it.

Okay, boom, healing is a ritual. Now what does the cleric do, and what non-Vancian class does the same thing?

The cleric:
Learns the ritual.
The non-vancian class:
Learns the ritual. (perhaps they may need a feet or theme to learn rituals)

 

[Jester David]

Much like the defender and striker became themes, the healer (which one of the clerics had IIRC) works well as a theme. Be a healer fighter and patch wounds after combat. Done.
A simmiar theme might be something like "tactitan" which could fill some of the warlord / movement niche.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Healing surges, in and of themselves, are not a healing mechanic. Second wind heals, resting (both short and extended) heals, potions heal, and various class powers and abilities heal. But healing surges can be used for non-healing things like extra damage on attacks or knock rituals like knock. It's one of those things that bugs me whenever anyone brings them up.

You could easily keep second wind, resting, items, and powers that heal while completely dropping healing surges. In fact, SWSE did it.

I think it's a bit silly to say that healing surges are not a healing mechanic, when 95% of all healing in 4E is "you my spend a healing surge," "your ally may spend a healing surge," or "you heal your ally as if they spent a healing surge." Healing surges are THE healing mechanic, and everything else is just a way to activate them and make use of them.

Sure, you can heal via those triggering actions, rather than by the unified central mechanic, but I prefer to have the unified mechanic and I prefer how healing surges play at the table. Healing mechanics work better when they are more finely controlled by such a central system.