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Acrobatic Combat DCs?

pawned79

First Post
I am going to be playing an acrobatic character in our upcoming Forgotten Realms game, and my DM, a regular poster here, told me to ask the boards for help formulating standard DCs for some actions. If you have a reference to this subject, please let me know. Here are some examples of acrobatic combat maneuvers that we would like to make DCs for:

Leaping over an opponent of the same size to strike an opponent behind.

Springing off a wall to make an attack.

Jumping off of an opponent to reach a higher location.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a crossbar.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a rope.

Fighting an opponent while on a beam.

Another question: An action like Charge that requires a minimum distance to build up momentum; Do you HAVE to charge running on the ground in a straight line? Could you spring off of a wall and make a charge?

Thank you for all your help.

Patrick
 

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sithramir

First Post
balance

I'd suggest reading the Jump and Balance skills along with the tumble skill. About 50 percent or more of those can be covered by these. Jump you have to make a roll to see how many feet you can jump which would determine if you can jump over an opponent or not. Fighting on beam would involve balance checks or possibly some tumble also.

Also look into the duelist PrC in the fighter supplement book because I remember it dealing with jump attacks by one of his abilities plus the fact that that prestige class could fit in with your character quite well...

Hope this helps.
 

iwatt

First Post
I think he was asking for specific values for the DC checks.

Leaping over an opponent of the same size to strike an opponent behind.

I would make this a Tumble DC 25 plus the apropriate jump DC for that height. Maybe grant a +2 circumstance bonus to the attacks due to surprise factor the first time in combat.

Springing off a wall to make an attack.

Tumble DC 15 +5 for every 5ft above 10ft.

Jumping off of an opponent to reach a higher location.

Obviously this causes an AoO. Add +5 to the Jump DC.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a crossbar.

Wow, this I don't know. Maybe a Climb check. Obviously a hefty attack penalty unless you have the Brachiation feat.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a rope.

Again, don't know.

Fighting an opponent while on a beam.

This is handled in the balance skill. You need 5 ranks at least not to be caught off balance (+2 attacks against you and you loose dex modifier to AC). Every time you´re hit you make the apropriate balance check not to fall off.
 

JayOmega

First Post
I think he was asking for specific values for the DC checks.

Leaping over an opponent of the same size to strike an opponent behind.

I would make this a Tumble DC 25 plus the apropriate jump DC for that height. Maybe grant a +2 circumstance bonus to the attacks due to surprise factor the first time in combat.
Tumble DC 25 lets you through the opponent's square w/o AoO. The "jump over" description is just window dressing; if he's got the ranks to be able to do it, let him describe it that way. Too many rolls slow the game down.

If he can't/won't tumble, use a standard jump check, and take the AoO if he succeeds. A failed jump check is probably resolved as a (charging) bull rush attempt against the jumpee (again with the appropriate AoO). Me-doken! :D

Springing off a wall to make an attack.

Tumble DC 15 +5 for every 5ft above 10ft.
I'm not sure this requires a check, other than what would be required to move this way (an appropriate Jump check, if trying to reach a specific height to avoid attacking through partial cover provided by a low wall, for example. Or if the off-the-wall movement is being used to avoid another foe or obstacle.)

Otherwise, again, it's just a descriptive move/attack. I wouldn't penalize the player by making him succeed at a tough roll just for the sake of livening up the game like this. I'll take well-described actions any day over "I move up 15 feet and attack. Does AC 19 hit?" :)

...all this "no roll" stuff is assuming the character is good at this. If it's the dwarf tank with a -6 total Tumble modifier, then it might be different. But if you can make DC 5 without rolling, go for it.

Jumping off of an opponent to reach a higher location.

Obviously this causes an AoO. Add +5 to the Jump DC.
I'd call it an Overrun attack, but make a Jump check (with the appropriate adder for the foe's height) if the melee touch attack succeeds, rather than resolving the trip attack as normal. Since you aren't trying to charge through his space, I wouldn't let the opponent choose to avoid you, as would be normal for an overrun. (Spring Attack or a DC 25 Tumble check is needed if you want to avoid AoO due to moving thru threatened spaces like this.) A penalty to the jump distance could be appropriate, but making the touch attack and sucking up the AoO is probably penalty enough. (Without some magical enhancement, vertical jump checks suck cream-style corn anyway.)

If you aren't charging in, I'd say the Jump check could be made by first successfully grappling the foe. Pulling his helmet down over his eyes first is optional.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a crossbar.

Wow, this I don't know. Maybe a Climb check. Obviously a hefty attack penalty unless you have the Brachiation feat.

Fighting an opponent while hanging by your legs on a rope.

Again, don't know.
The Brachiation feat is related to movement speed, and requires free hands, so I'm not sure it would apply here.

The Climb skill covers the defensive aspects. DC 10 (beam/ledge) or DC 15 (unknotted rope) to hang on if you take damage. You don't get shield or dex, and opponents get +2 to hit you. Since you aren't holding on with all limbs, an additional -2 circumstance penalty would be appropriate.

Offensively, there's nothing I could find in the books that makes it hard to attack from these situations. Attacking from prone is -4, but kneeling carries no penalty. Attacking while levitating is -1 (up to -5 for continued attacks). These two climbing situations aren't quite as limiting as lying flat on the ground, but they're more limiting than the complete freedom of motion, but lack of leverage, gained while levitating. So, for a cinematic game, no penalty. For a serious game, go with the standard -2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. (There's an argument for ditching the Str benefit while hanging on a rope due to lack of leverage, but if you don't lose it when levitating, you shouldn't lose it when climbing.)

Fighting an opponent while on a beam.

This is handled in the balance skill. You need 5 ranks at least not to be caught off balance (+2 attacks against you and you loose dex modifier to AC). Every time you´re hit you make the apropriate balance check not to fall off.
Agree.
 

the Jester

Legend
pawned79 said:
Another question: An action like Charge that requires a minimum distance to build up momentum; Do you HAVE to charge running on the ground in a straight line? Could you spring off of a wall and make a charge?

Thank you for all your help.

Patrick

Charging must be done in a straight line; further, you have to stop in the first square in which you threaten an opponent and make your attack.

There was a recent excellent Dragon mag article about tricky swashbuckling-style combat- anyone have the issue # handy?
 

Karanaj

First Post
It's issue 301 which I happen to have handy.

The only things that really even closely pertain to your questions are three entries:
Balance - Throw Someone off Balance
If you and your opponent are both standing on the same precarious surface that is susceptible to swaying (such as a tightrope, small rowboat, or a thin tree branch) you can attempt to rock the surface and knock your opponent off-balance by making an opposed balance check as a move-equivalent action. the loser is considered off-balance (opponents get +2 to attack him, he is denied his Dex modifier to AC) if the winner and loser differ by 5 or more, the loser falls, taking the appropriate falling damage.

Tumble - Wall Jump
If you are at least 5' away from a wall you can roll a tumble check (DC 20) to run up the wall 5' and backflip off it. If you succeed at this check, you may roll a Jump check from the wall as if you had made a running jump.

Chandelier Swing
Swinging at an enemy on a chandelier requires a Tumble check (DC 15). If you succeed you can swing up to the length of the rope or chain that holds the chandelier as a charge action (same benefits and penalties). If the chandelier is secure by many ropes, you can't swing on it. [this check only covers the swinging part. you may have to roll a jump check to get to the chandelier]

As for your specific questions -

Leaping over an opponent of the same size to strike the opponent from behind
This has already been said, but what you described is a Tumble check (dc 15 I believe) but if you want to gain some sort of advantage from attacking someone in the back (ie, catch the person flatfooted for a sneak attack) then you need to have the Feign Weakness feat from Sword and Fist -
Requirements - BaB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: If you make a successful Bluff check against your opponent's Sense Motive check, you lure the foe into making an attack of opportunity because he thinks you are unarmed. But you armed and you make your attack against your drawn out foe, who is caught flat-footed before he makes his attack of opportunity.
You may also use this feat with a Tiny or Small weapon with which you are proficient by attempting to hide it until the last second, but you incur a -2 or -6 penalty to your Bluff check, respectively.

I have a house rule that allows you to not suffer the attack of opportunity if you beat your opponent's check by 5 or more (you bluffed the person so well that he even attacked where you wanted him to)

So the whole thing would go something like this (on 2 successful checks, of course)
the fighter slashes at you, thinking you defenseless, but you anticipate the blow, leaping over his head and stabbing him in the back

Another question: An action like Charge that requires a minimum distance to build up momentum; Do you HAVE to charge running on the ground in a straight line? Could you spring off of a wall and make a charge?

The only thing official I can help you with on that is the Fleet of Foot feat from Song and Silence. It lets you make 1 turn of up to 90 degrees in your charge (Requires Dex 15+ and Run)

edit: Swing from a chandelier is another acrobatic charge action, and the Bluff check comes from a feat.
 
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iwatt

First Post
Otherwise, again, it's just a descriptive move/attack. I wouldn't penalize the player by making him succeed at a tough roll just for the sake of livening up the game like this. I'll take well-described actions any day over "I move up 15 feet and attack. Does AC 19 hit?"

Oh, I agree with you. Just let me get my GM to agree as well :D . But with 3E being the tactical combat simulator it is, a lot of people feel confortable working within a set frame of rules.

After rereading most of my post, I realized that i was applying my "own" style of play. My players are a bunch of lazy bums who keep forgetting the rules, so I generally just set really ad-hoc rules based on:

DC 15 : Something an unskilled character can barely acomplish, but a moderately skilled one will acomplish more than half the time. Jackie Chan should be pulling this off always.

DC 20 : A skilled character can still succed, but it's a gamble. Jackie can still pull it off, but theree's still a small chance of failure.

DC 25+: This is a moderately tough roll for Jackie, everybody else beware.
 

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