Pathfinder 1E airwalkrr's Rise of the Runelords AE PBP Reborn! [OOC]

[Scott DeWar]

I would like a rogue's gallery.

 

[perrinmiller]

Though I typically use the ??/?? HP mechanic more often than PM, as he said I give AC (and often HP) out to my players. I haven't done a data driven study or anything, but I can't really tell that it often makes a difference in player decisions. Since I can't tell, it doesn't matter enough to sacrifice the pace, IMO. I've been tempted to reveal monster saves as well, but there are more variables there to consider - situational bonuses come to mind right off the bat.

I actually had full discussions with my players back when I made the decision. The only time I have seen it really make a difference was quite recently in LPF. By knowing the high AC (29) of a buffed out summoner’s eidolon, they decided to not even attack it. However, they probably still would have avoided the eidolon to go after the summoner anyway since it was more efficient that way.

But even if there appears to be some meta-game thinking from some power-gamers, I have still found it made little difference. Those same players are still deciding on the same tactics either way. They either target weaker looking opponents first, or they focus on spell casters or boss targets first. Generally the choice has more to do with the tactical layout than the revealed ACs of the opponents.

It's not as realistic as the hybrid system mentioned by kinem, but IMO it is more realistic than the standard AC system.

I am not sure how can you say it is “more” realistic? They are all pretty much the same thing when you get down to it, Mowgli.

Attack bonuses and AC are just a balancing mechanic to rate Offense vs. Defense abilities. Rolls that succeed reduce HP. The whole system scales upwards as characters level. DR in any form just modifies the rate of HP reduction from rolls that beat a defense score.

The mechanics all pretty much boil down to the same thing; the average rate of HP reduction. Over a battle the rate of HPs being reduced to 0 is the artificial game mechanic to determine when a foe is defeated. But HP reduction does NOT equal wounds, does it?

Compare, the fighter with 20 HP wearing plate armor as his AC is 11 instead of 19 with the Armor as DR rule. That means he is hit 40% more often. So during a battle he takes multiple hits that result in potentially 1-3 dmg after DR, where he might have taken 1 hit for 10 dmg under the old system. Either way, he is at about 10/20HP and still at full combat capability. How you describe each attack’s hit in your writing might be slightly different, but that is not any more or less realistic.

However, the rate of scaling as characters increase in level is going to skew with Armor as DR. Attack bonuses are going to increase, but AC will not increase as much. Damage amounts will increase, but DR really will not. Add in that we need to track Critical Defense Check Bonuses and Critical Attack Bonuses, and things became more complicated.

Bottom Line: Cons, increase complications and potential balance issues. Pros, none

 

[Guest 11456]

I added Thrindar's background and now he is ready for approval.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Attack bonuses are going to increase, but AC will not increase as much. Damage amounts will increase, but DR really will not.

Bottom Line: Cons, increase complications and potential balance issues. Pros, none

I think I'll just agree to disagree on this one. I've got my prejudices regarding the way armor should "work" mechanically, and I've put quite a bit of thought into it - I like it. Might I change my mind after seeing it in play? Indeed, I might. But until then I'll remain my own stubborn self, thinking my concrete thoughts and liking this idea .

 

[perrinmiller]

Consider this, Mowgli. Take a look at higher level games with characters like Frost. Her Defense under the "Armor as DR" variant is 15, but she has DR of 15 to balance against the mundane damage. However, her opponents are getting multiple attacks with Attack bonuses of +20 and +15 on secondary attacks. That's 19 hits out of 20. Guess what happens when they have added ability damages like level drain. She is hit on nearly every attack and needing like more saves per turn.

Looking at level 1 those goblins and kobolds rolling 1d4 damage dice are hardly doing anything to most characters with Studded Leather armor or better. A fighter with scale mail armor is practically invincible against a horde of them.

The more I look into it, I am starting to really question the balance issues.

 

[Scott DeWar]

Consider this, Mowgli. Take a look at higher level games with characters like Frost. Her Defense under the "Armor as DR" variant is 15, but she has DR of 15 to balance against the mundane damage. However, her opponents are getting multiple attacks with Attack bonuses of +20 and +15 on secondary attacks. That's 19 hits out of 20. Guess what happens when they have added ability damages like level drain. She is hit on nearly every attack and needing like more saves per turn.

Looking at level 1 those goblins and kobolds rolling 1d4 damage dice are hardly doing anything to most characters with Studded Leather armor or better. A fighter with scale mail armor is practically invincible against a horde of them.

The more I look into it, I am starting to really question the balance issues.

an interesting and rather valid argument.

 

[perrinmiller]

an interesting and rather valid argument.

Exactly. Thinking about those combats with Heinrich and Tyrien against those undead wights got me thankful that variant was not being used.

 

[Scott DeWar]

The auto hit by an undead is not something I can see Heinrich surviving.

 

[airwalkrr]

To everyone: regarding Armor as DR, I seem to have failed to make my point for WHY I am using it. Players seem to be discussing the realism aspect of it, and TBH I simply don't care about the realism. I looked at it and thought "hmm, this might speed up gameplay or at least a sense of action going on because misses are going to be a lot more rare." Whether or not it's balanced, well that's something we can tweak as we go along. In any case, I will assume for the same of this game that armor-based DR is always obvious. Mundane armor looks like mundane armor most of the time and thus you will typically know it grants DR/magic. Magic armor looks like magic armor most of the time and thus you will typically know it grants DR/adamantine. Adamantine armor has a distinctive color ALL the time (unless disguised by magic), and thus always grants DR/-. I do not think it is incredibly meta to give this information away so this aspect isn't really negotiable. Therefore the only issue up for debate on whether or not I use this rule is "Will this 1) speed up, 2) slow down, or 3) have no appreciable effect on combat?" Discuss. There have been some good points made on the issue regarding attacks that have secondary effects. In cases where the secondary effect is far more punishing than the sheer hp damage, such as a wight's energy drain attack, perhaps a different approach is needed. I will give it more thought.

PRATD: I'm starting to get swayed away from this and more towards what perrinmiller described as "Player Self Resolve." In fact, it would make it faster for all concerned if there was also a "GM Self Resolve" rule in effect. In other words, find a way for players to resolve their attacks and effects on their turn and find a way for monsters to resolve their attacks on my GM turn. When a player attacks, he attacks an AC with an melee or ranged attack roll or a Save Score with a magic attack roll. I guess this would resemble 4e in regard to defenses somewhat then. Yes, mathematically and statistically it works out exactly the same (if you assume our dice are equally fair of course), but it allows us to resolve more on our respective turns in PBP. What say you to this?

Meta: I think we can strike a sort of happy medium here. Here are some bullet points for how I think I will do things based on player preferences and my own. These are just guidelines because I rarely like having hard-and-fast rules. It just helps me to type them out to organize my thoughts and give players my point of view.

• During the first round of combat, I won't reveal many specifics. I will reveal things that are obvious like size (specifically in mechanical terms, in which case it will be capitalized), physical description, notable equipment (e.g. armor type worn), and enough to determine the monster's apparent type (such as humanoid, aberration, etc.).
• Regardless of whether the entire party fails a Knowledge check or at least one person succeeds, anyone with at least one rank in a Knowledge skill can determine the basic characteristics of a monster of the given type. For example, anyone with at least one rank in Knowledge (arcana) can identify an apparent construct and its basic properties, such as immunity to bleed, and differentiate a construct from, say, a typical object. (Of course bear in mind constructs can sometimes use Stealth and Disguise.)
• Everyone will have the opportunity to roll the appropriate Knowledge check related to monster type during the first round; this will be fairly important but it will be a player responsibility. Since I will give you the apparent type, you will know which Knowledge check to roll. If you forget to roll during the first round, you may roll in a subsequent round.
• After a monster has been identified (generally after the first round if players are diligent and there is at least one successful roll), I will tally up the individual successes. Based on the number of total successes and how high the roll was above what was necessary, I will choose which information to reveal on the following round.
• I will assume your characters are capable of communicating this information to each other in the meta unless some obvious condition (like muteness or a silence spell) is in effect.
• In the event all players fail their Knowledge checks, specific information will be revealed on a case-by-case basis. For example, after an attack roll against AC has been made, a monster's AC will be revealed just to speed up future rolls.

I like these guidelines. If you have any further suggestions or concerns voice them now, but I think we've discussed this enough.

Rogue's Gallery:

[MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION], you're right that there is not a "strong" arcane filling the role, but with both a bard and a summoner the arcane abilities of the party should be up to par. Your proposition of an alchemist wouldn't change that equation much IMHO as alchemist's provide support and damage output similar to that of a traditional arcane while not being as versatile in departments like divination and conjuration. I'm limiting the party to four because 1) the AP is written for four and 2) four is more manageable and quicker than more. One proposition I have for alternates is that they can accompany the group as a sort of "fellow adventuring company" or occasional companions. The alternates are following up on similar leads, happen to be in the right place at the right time, and are advancing alongside the main party. This way they can interact in some role-playing encounters and still be someone engaged in the game without slowing down combats.

[MENTION=11456]Tailspinner[/MENTION], thanks for submitting your character. I'll look it over this weekend.

 

[perrinmiller]

To everyone: regarding Armor as DR, Therefore the only issue up for debate on whether or not I use this rule is "Will this 1) speed up, 2) slow down, or 3) have no appreciable effect on combat?" Discuss.

I see what you are worried about, airwalkrr. 1st level (and even 2nd level) is common to have that one combat that drags out for 10 rounds as both sides have a few rounds where neither side lands a blow. Oddly enough every single one of those battles I have experienced involved DR on the monsters (Skeletons and Fey). After 3rd level, I have rarely seen that happen though. So if the variant rule is strictly to speed up combat then it is most applicable to provide the analysis at level 1.

Goblins have AC16 normally. This will be Defense 14 with DR2/Armor. That means the chance to hit increases by 10%. For the character using a Longsword with Str 14, the average damage would be 6.5, and the DR would drop that to 4.5. That is a 25% reduction to the value of that 1d8 roll. If that character had a great axe, that would a 17% reduction. Initially, that would appear to be a bad trade.

Over 20 rounds with a Character's +3 Attack Bonus Longsword (Str 14): Normal Rules would average 8 Hits for 6.5 dmg = 52 total. Compared to Armor as DR averaging 10 hits for 4.5 dmg = 45 total. Less overall damage.

Take Kelvyn as a second example: +5 Earthbreaker (2d6+6). He is going to hit 10% more often, but he will still kill a goblin with 5 hp in one shot. So he would benefit from the variant against goblins because his minimum damage after DR can still kill.

But Kelvyn against a Bugbear (Def 12, DR5/Armor, 16HP) it would be: Normal Rules would average 9 Hits for 13 dmg = 117 total, compared to Armor as DR averaging 14 hits for 8 dmg = 112 total. His halberd is would be 9 hits for 11.5 dmg = 103.5 total, compared to Armor as DR averaging 14 hits for 6.5 dmg = 91 total.

Jamir with his shortbow is going to be pitiful. +2 Shortbow (1d6): Versus Goblins, Normal Rules would average 6 Hits for 3.5 dmg = 21 total, compared to Armor as DR averaging 8 hits for 1.5 dmg = 12 total. He will not even be able to get lucky and one hit drop a goblin without a critical hit. Against the Bugbear it is even worse, Normal Rules would average 5 Hits for 3.5 dmg = 17.5 total, compared to Armor as DR averaging 10 hits for 0 dmg = 2 total (if he rolled two 6's on the damage for arrows on those 10 hits).

I actually think the variant rule will have the opposite effect, airwalkrr. We might have more hits, but combat could easily take longer.

The variant also appears to heavily favor the melee character with high strength and high armor. If Kelvyn wears scalemail, he can wade into a horde of goblins with his earthbreaker and come away with no damage unless he gets hit with a critical. That is going to be boring and no fun for the rest of the players. Why would I even bother to waste a spell or even shoot and arrow?

Bottom Line for Armor as DR:
Cons: more complicated, probably unbalanced, potentially slows down combat, and takes away fun for characters without high damage attacks.
Pros: None.

PRATD: What say you to this?

I am wondering why we need a different rule variant for magical attacks. If we need the GM to provide meta-information on Saving Throws to self resolve magical spells anyway, then why not just allow players to roll the saving throw for the GM in that case?

SdW, you're right that there is not a "strong" arcane filling the role, but with both a bard and a summoner the arcane abilities of the party should be up to par.

Kinem switched to wizard, so we have plenty of arcane support but we are now slightly weaker on melee strength.